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  #11  
Old 10-04-2021, 09:50 AM
PeterMusic PeterMusic is offline
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all2Ears, I certainly believe that a subwoofer can improve your sound. However, I believe a Mac 1502 the minimum tube amp for the SabrinaX. I do not believe a Mac 275 adequate to get the best out of the speaker. It's sensitivity is rated at 87 dB. If played loudly I think the SabrinaX would easily clip a Mac 275. I think you need a clean 150 watts of tube or 300 watts of SS to adequately drive this speaker. Before I bought a sub I would adequately power the speaker. But I know you don't need me to tell you this. Good luck on your purchase.

Best

Charles
Hi Charles,

It would take an awful lot for the MC275 to clip in the OP's room.

But staying on the subwoofer question--won't adding an active sub with, say, 1,000 watts supporting the low end, take a huge load off the power amp? If yes, doesn't that change your answer on the MC275? I ask because I don't think there is any amount of power that will bring strong bass to the Sabrinas (even glowing reviews acknowledge this)
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  #12  
Old 10-04-2021, 10:46 AM
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Hi Charles,



It would take an awful lot for the MC275 to clip in the OP's room.



But staying on the subwoofer question--won't adding an active sub with, say, 1,000 watts supporting the low end, take a huge load off the power amp? If yes, doesn't that change your answer on the MC275? I ask because I don't think there is any amount of power that will bring strong bass to the Sabrinas (even glowing reviews acknowledge this)


Assuming the MC275 clips, (big if) offloading the lower end would help but it would require a crossover to remove the low frequencies from the MC275 input signal. And then, it may depend on what crossover frequency is used.
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  #13  
Old 10-04-2021, 08:29 PM
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Hi Charles,

It would take an awful lot for the MC275 to clip in the OP's room.

But staying on the subwoofer question--won't adding an active sub with, say, 1,000 watts supporting the low end, take a huge load off the power amp? If yes, doesn't that change your answer on the MC275? I ask because I don't think there is any amount of power that will bring strong bass to the Sabrinas (even glowing reviews acknowledge this)
It depends on what you mean by an awful lot. There are many movie sound tracks that when played at reasonable high level would easily approach or exceed 75 watts. I agree that for the majority of music 75 watts would be adequate but far from optimum. I don't believe it wise to approach clipping for any amp tube or otherwise. A sensitivity of 87 dB is typical for a speaker like SabrinaX. IMO, a Mac 462 is optimum or a 1502 and most definitely what I would recommend. The great thing about Mac is that you get so much amp for the money.

I doubt that Wilson would agree that SabrinaX is bass deficient as you imply. No, first and foremost adequately supply the speaker with power, then add the sub. It is difficult to blend a sub smoothly with the main when the main is properly driven. When the main is not adequately driven, impossible.

Best

Charles

Last edited by Charles; 10-04-2021 at 08:37 PM.
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  #14  
Old 10-07-2021, 12:17 PM
PeterMusic PeterMusic is offline
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Originally Posted by Charles View Post
It depends on what you mean by an awful lot. There are many movie sound tracks that when played at reasonable high level would easily approach or exceed 75 watts. I agree that for the majority of music 75 watts would be adequate but far from optimum. I don't believe it wise to approach clipping for any amp tube or otherwise. A sensitivity of 87 dB is typical for a speaker like SabrinaX. IMO, a Mac 462 is optimum or a 1502 and most definitely what I would recommend. The great thing about Mac is that you get so much amp for the money.

I doubt that Wilson would agree that SabrinaX is bass deficient as you imply. No, first and foremost adequately supply the speaker with power, then add the sub. It is difficult to blend a sub smoothly with the main when the main is properly driven. When the main is not adequately driven, impossible.

Best

Charles
OK--just refreshed my memory--I can't remember if links to other sites are discouraged, but if you check out the rave review on Absolute Sound, you'll see clear reference to both your point about a need for power and my point about Wilson's conscious compromise on the low end. I did have the originals at home for a week--they were magnificent, but they really do need a sub if you enjoy rock
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  #15  
Old 10-08-2021, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterMusic View Post
OK--just refreshed my memory--I can't remember if links to other sites are discouraged, but if you check out the rave review on Absolute Sound, you'll see clear reference to both your point about a need for power and my point about Wilson's conscious compromise on the low end. I did have the originals at home for a week--they were magnificent, but they really do need a sub if you enjoy rock
Sitting at my desk in Provo, I am looking across my office at an MC275. Beautiful amplifier but not at all appropriate for Sabrinas in terms of power/dynamic swings. It runs out of gas early on - the impedance load of Sabrina is not its friend.

Not sure to which TAS review you refer, Sabrina or SabrinaX. We can look at what the reviewers wrote and anyone interested can easily find the full text of the reviews by going to the TAS site.

What Neil Gader said about Sabrina was "..While full-range extension to 20Hz slips from its grasp, the Sabrina still manages a respectable and vigorous low-to-mid-30Hz range (in-room), which if you haven’t experienced it lately is more than satisfying."

While Matthew Clott goes to great length to describe the actual design choices, he also describes the bottom line this way "..What I mean by this is that someone purchasing an Yvette (Wilson’s next-up model) will be getting a full-range, 20Hz-to-25kHz transducer. Aesthetic considerations aside, with the immense adjustability that Wilson speakers offer, a room that can handle an Yvette can also handle an XVX; your speaker choice is based on budget and aesthetics. But the SabrinaX is purposely designed and built with limitations. It is smaller than the Yvette and extends down to “only” 31Hz."

So that "limitation" frequency is below a kick drum and below a 4 string bass. It's right about the limit of a 5 string or 6 string bass. Based on the number of rock and roll aficionados who choose Sabrina or SabrinaX and power them accordingly, I would suggest that their experiences are different from yours and more in line with Neil Gader and Matthew Clott.

One last point - I have yet to hear a system of any size/magnitude that cannot benefit from a properly integrated subwoofer. (That is assuming that the speaker actually reaches far down enough to meet a true sub.)

As always, ymmv
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  #16  
Old 10-09-2021, 10:58 AM
PeterMusic PeterMusic is offline
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Originally Posted by metaphacts View Post
Sitting at my desk in Provo, I am looking across my office at an MC275. Beautiful amplifier but not at all appropriate for Sabrinas in terms of power/dynamic swings. It runs out of gas early on - the impedance load of Sabrina is not its friend.

Not sure to which TAS review you refer, Sabrina or SabrinaX. We can look at what the reviewers wrote and anyone interested can easily find the full text of the reviews by going to the TAS site.

What Neil Gader said about Sabrina was "..While full-range extension to 20Hz slips from its grasp, the Sabrina still manages a respectable and vigorous low-to-mid-30Hz range (in-room), which if you haven’t experienced it lately is more than satisfying."

While Matthew Clott goes to great length to describe the actual design choices, he also describes the bottom line this way "..What I mean by this is that someone purchasing an Yvette (Wilson’s next-up model) will be getting a full-range, 20Hz-to-25kHz transducer. Aesthetic considerations aside, with the immense adjustability that Wilson speakers offer, a room that can handle an Yvette can also handle an XVX; your speaker choice is based on budget and aesthetics. But the SabrinaX is purposely designed and built with limitations. It is smaller than the Yvette and extends down to “only” 31Hz."

So that "limitation" frequency is below a kick drum and below a 4 string bass. It's right about the limit of a 5 string or 6 string bass. Based on the number of rock and roll aficionados who choose Sabrina or SabrinaX and power them accordingly, I would suggest that their experiences are different from yours and more in line with Neil Gader and Matthew Clott.

One last point - I have yet to hear a system of any size/magnitude that cannot benefit from a properly integrated subwoofer. (That is assuming that the speaker actually reaches far down enough to meet a true sub.)

As always, ymmv
Funny how people read different things from the same text. I believe my Sabrina/subwoofer experience is the same as the reviewers', and also the same as yours.

The reviewers and I all say they are magnificent speakers overall, and all 3 of us note "limitation" and "slip from grasp" on the low end. This is no big deal for Diana Krall or Yo Yo Ma in an apartment building, but very important for Talking Heads in a house (especially if one were Burning Down The House, haha). The only difference I read is that their employment depends at least a bit on them being kind; my words are more blunt.

You go on to say that almost every floor stander benefits from a sub--I agree with this too. But of course, that leaves us agreeing that the SabrinaX "needs" a sub.

I do not mean my criticism of the bass to obscure my view that the Sabrinas are awesome speakers--they are!
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  #17  
Old 10-12-2021, 01:40 AM
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metaphacts metaphacts is offline
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Originally Posted by PeterMusic View Post
Funny how people read different things from the same text. I believe my Sabrina/subwoofer experience is the same as the reviewers', and also the same as yours.

The reviewers and I all say they are magnificent speakers overall, and all 3 of us note "limitation" and "slip from grasp" on the low end. This is no big deal for Diana Krall or Yo Yo Ma in an apartment building, but very important for Talking Heads in a house (especially if one were Burning Down The House, haha). The only difference I read is that their employment depends at least a bit on them being kind; my words are more blunt.

You go on to say that almost every floor stander benefits from a sub--I agree with this too. But of course, that leaves us agreeing that the SabrinaX "needs" a sub.

I do not mean my criticism of the bass to obscure my view that the Sabrinas are awesome speakers--they are!
First, no one is questioning your assessment of SabrinaX in your room with your gear. As the old saying goes, “you pay your money and you take your choice.”

However, RIF. You attribute things to the reviewers and to me that are at best a stretch and at worst, simply untrue. Much of your experience bears no resemblance to the reviewers’ or to mine.

First let’s look at “limitation.” Assuming you are referring to rock, you are essentially referring to 40Hz to 80 Hz. Here's the actual "limitation" paragraph by Matt Clott, "I want to dedicate a separate paragraph to the SabrinaX’s bass performance. Not because of what it can’t do, but because of what it can. There is nothing missing that is not a result of intentional technical and physical limitations. Low-frequency extension to 31Hz (-3dB, average room response) will give you all the music and extension you want, especially in a smallish room. Bass is deep, textured, and taut. The added bracing and X-Material implementation give great low-frequency detail, and the 8″ woofer used in the DAW provides lightning-fast low-frequency transients. Bass blooms beautifully, like a fresh orchid, but never overwhelms the room (as long as the speaker is set up properly). "


To reiterate - the review indicated that SabrinaX bass extended to 31Hz - below the lowest frequency of a kick drum or a 4 string bass and at the bottom of a 5 or 6 string bass. Given that my son is a touring rock bassist playing 4, 5, and 6 string basses, I'm pretty sure that I am aware of what rock and roll bass sounds like. Now if we were talking about Mickey Hart's Beam, that would be another story.

Next you, not me, use the term “slip from grasp.” Let’s look at Neil Gader’s actual quote in context. “While full-range extension to 20Hz slips from its grasp, the Sabrina still manages a respectable and vigorous low-to-mid-30Hz range (in-room), which if you haven’t experienced it lately is more than satisfying. The Sabrina generates a great deal of low-frequency energy, even summoning the near-seismic, batten-down-the-hatches shudder in the pipe organ’s lowest octave during the tracks from the Rutter Requiem. But it does have limits; the deepest dives of an organ or the energy of an orchestral bass drum during Copland’s Fanfare are dynamically softened slightly and lose some pitch integrity.” I assume you are aware of where the orchestral bass drum called for in “Fanfare” and pipe organ’s lowest frequency lie. Here’s a hint – those frequencies are below a Hammond B3.

Moving on to subs, bass extension is but one attribute. However, it is the sub's ability to deliver an expanded sense of dimension and body throughout the entire frequency range that makes a sub worth adding to any system. Hence any speaker can benefit from the addition of subs. Needs? Again, that's your word/description, not mine and certainly not Neil Gader's or Matt Clott's. That said, if you want to do the Beam properly with any speaker, you will need subs.

And for the most misleading comment of all from the post on the first page, “but they will not reach much lower than stand-mounts.” I’ll wait for the list of stand mounts that are within 3dB at 31Hz. I’m sure there are must be a couple.

all2ears, I would suggest you go listen to SabrinaX at a Wilson Audio dealer. Being in Florida, you have access to four of the best. Visiting one or more of them and listening is the ideal way to get the measure of SabrinaX. It should tell you all you need to know to make the right decision for you.

Last edited by metaphacts; 10-12-2021 at 01:45 AM.
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  #18  
Old 10-12-2021, 08:36 AM
GSOphile GSOphile is offline
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Originally Posted by metaphacts View Post
First, no one is questioning your assessment of SabrinaX in your room with your gear. As the old saying goes, “you pay your money and you take your choice.”

However, RIF. You attribute things to the reviewers and to me that are at best a stretch and at worst, simply untrue. Much of your experience bears no resemblance to the reviewers’ or to mine.

First let’s look at “limitation.” Assuming you are referring to rock, you are essentially referring to 40Hz to 80 Hz. Here's the actual "limitation" paragraph by Matt Clott, "I want to dedicate a separate paragraph to the SabrinaX’s bass performance. Not because of what it can’t do, but because of what it can. There is nothing missing that is not a result of intentional technical and physical limitations. Low-frequency extension to 31Hz (-3dB, average room response) will give you all the music and extension you want, especially in a smallish room. Bass is deep, textured, and taut. The added bracing and X-Material implementation give great low-frequency detail, and the 8″ woofer used in the DAW provides lightning-fast low-frequency transients. Bass blooms beautifully, like a fresh orchid, but never overwhelms the room (as long as the speaker is set up properly). "


To reiterate - the review indicated that SabrinaX bass extended to 31Hz - below the lowest frequency of a kick drum or a 4 string bass and at the bottom of a 5 or 6 string bass. Given that my son is a touring rock bassist playing 4, 5, and 6 string basses, I'm pretty sure that I am aware of what rock and roll bass sounds like. Now if we were talking about Mickey Hart's Beam, that would be another story.

Next you, not me, use the term “slip from grasp.” Let’s look at Neil Gader’s actual quote in context. “While full-range extension to 20Hz slips from its grasp, the Sabrina still manages a respectable and vigorous low-to-mid-30Hz range (in-room), which if you haven’t experienced it lately is more than satisfying. The Sabrina generates a great deal of low-frequency energy, even summoning the near-seismic, batten-down-the-hatches shudder in the pipe organ’s lowest octave during the tracks from the Rutter Requiem. But it does have limits; the deepest dives of an organ or the energy of an orchestral bass drum during Copland’s Fanfare are dynamically softened slightly and lose some pitch integrity.” I assume you are aware of where the orchestral bass drum called for in “Fanfare” and pipe organ’s lowest frequency lie. Here’s a hint – those frequencies are below a Hammond B3.

Moving on to subs, bass extension is but one attribute. However, it is the sub's ability to deliver an expanded sense of dimension and body throughout the entire frequency range that makes a sub worth adding to any system. Hence any speaker can benefit from the addition of subs. Needs? Again, that's your word/description, not mine and certainly not Neil Gader's or Matt Clott's. That said, if you want to do the Beam properly with any speaker, you will need subs.

And for the most misleading comment of all from the post on the first page, “but they will not reach much lower than stand-mounts.” I’ll wait for the list of stand mounts that are within 3dB at 31Hz. I’m sure there are must be a couple.

all2ears, I would suggest you go listen to SabrinaX at a Wilson Audio dealer. Being in Florida, you have access to four of the best. Visiting one or more of them and listening is the ideal way to get the measure of SabrinaX. It should tell you all you need to know to make the right decision for you.
Terrific little floor stander (heard at dealer's recently) and excellent summation, metaphacts!
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  #19  
Old 10-12-2021, 12:27 PM
Charles Charles is offline
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Midrange and treble require substantial power to be driven cleanly.

In addition, I learned many years ago that Wilson understands more about subs than other manufacturers and most audiophiles. Wilson designs their mains to be driven full range.

If you desire to get the best out of a SabrinaX, first you must have a tube amp (I suggest a Mac 1502) of 150 watts or a SS amp really of 400 watts per channel (I suggest a Mac 452). Personally, I'd go with a Mac 452.

This will provide SabrinaX the power to open up and interface with the Watchdog sub or subs using the new Wilson electronic crossover, and properly drive the mids and treble.

There is nothing wrong to first using a mono sub and then adding another sub down the road, if funds are a problem.

The Watchdog uses the same 12" driver used in the Master Subsonic. It is built of X material. It is an amazing sub designed exactly for the SabrinaX.

Wilson learned long ago that contrary to intuition, running the sub using only the LP is best. Running the main full range is best. Wilson speakers are incredibly rugged and difficult to over load.

This is the fun of highend audio. Having a plan for improvement and Wilson's though expensive allow for an upgrade path that while expensive is not redundant.

I believe I can say with confidence that there is no sub on the market that will come close to matching a Watchdog system for SabrinaX.

Best

Charles

Last edited by Charles; 10-13-2021 at 12:32 AM.
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  #20  
Old 10-13-2021, 02:42 PM
PeterMusic PeterMusic is offline
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Originally Posted by metaphacts View Post
First, no one is questioning your assessment of SabrinaX in your room with your gear. As the old saying goes, “you pay your money and you take your choice.”

However, RIF. You attribute things to the reviewers and to me that are at best a stretch and at worst, simply untrue. Much of your experience bears no resemblance to the reviewers’ or to mine.

First let’s look at “limitation.” Assuming you are referring to rock, you are essentially referring to 40Hz to 80 Hz. Here's the actual "limitation" paragraph by Matt Clott, "I want to dedicate a separate paragraph to the SabrinaX’s bass performance. Not because of what it can’t do, but because of what it can. There is nothing missing that is not a result of intentional technical and physical limitations. Low-frequency extension to 31Hz (-3dB, average room response) will give you all the music and extension you want, especially in a smallish room. Bass is deep, textured, and taut. The added bracing and X-Material implementation give great low-frequency detail, and the 8″ woofer used in the DAW provides lightning-fast low-frequency transients. Bass blooms beautifully, like a fresh orchid, but never overwhelms the room (as long as the speaker is set up properly). "


To reiterate - the review indicated that SabrinaX bass extended to 31Hz - below the lowest frequency of a kick drum or a 4 string bass and at the bottom of a 5 or 6 string bass. Given that my son is a touring rock bassist playing 4, 5, and 6 string basses, I'm pretty sure that I am aware of what rock and roll bass sounds like. Now if we were talking about Mickey Hart's Beam, that would be another story.

Next you, not me, use the term “slip from grasp.” Let’s look at Neil Gader’s actual quote in context. “While full-range extension to 20Hz slips from its grasp, the Sabrina still manages a respectable and vigorous low-to-mid-30Hz range (in-room), which if you haven’t experienced it lately is more than satisfying. The Sabrina generates a great deal of low-frequency energy, even summoning the near-seismic, batten-down-the-hatches shudder in the pipe organ’s lowest octave during the tracks from the Rutter Requiem. But it does have limits; the deepest dives of an organ or the energy of an orchestral bass drum during Copland’s Fanfare are dynamically softened slightly and lose some pitch integrity.” I assume you are aware of where the orchestral bass drum called for in “Fanfare” and pipe organ’s lowest frequency lie. Here’s a hint – those frequencies are below a Hammond B3.

Moving on to subs, bass extension is but one attribute. However, it is the sub's ability to deliver an expanded sense of dimension and body throughout the entire frequency range that makes a sub worth adding to any system. Hence any speaker can benefit from the addition of subs. Needs? Again, that's your word/description, not mine and certainly not Neil Gader's or Matt Clott's. That said, if you want to do the Beam properly with any speaker, you will need subs.

And for the most misleading comment of all from the post on the first page, “but they will not reach much lower than stand-mounts.” I’ll wait for the list of stand mounts that are within 3dB at 31Hz. I’m sure there are must be a couple.

all2ears, I would suggest you go listen to SabrinaX at a Wilson Audio dealer. Being in Florida, you have access to four of the best. Visiting one or more of them and listening is the ideal way to get the measure of SabrinaX. It should tell you all you need to know to make the right decision for you.
Ouch!

Both of the reviewers cited, and you've noted, "intentional" limitations on the bass. One of them also opined that bass was the only clear rationale he could see for the Yvette in the Wilson lineup. That's what I heard (or maybe I should say "felt"), so I'm confused when you say my experience does not match theirs.

I think there are certain brands that arouse incredible passion, in large part because these companies produce incredible products--Wilson, McIntosh, Apple, Tesla, Porsche--to name a few. But that does not mean that all of their awesome products are designed without compromise.
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