DS450 stereo v. DS450 mono blocks?

[kfr01]

AA Team:

My Ref. 150 is in the shop. As much as I love the sound, I like to leave it on all weekend long, and tubes just don't like to be used like that. I asked my dealer to demo the DS450 (he had a floor model not hooked up) while the 150 is in the shop.

I think I'm sold. While I am giving up some spatial magic, the ease of use and low heat are perfect for me. Also, there are a few areas where the DS450 is better than the 150 (e.g., bass grip and immediacy).

So, the question. Spring for the DS450M? Has anyone demoed the DS450M versus the 450 stereo?

[jdandy]

Karl.......Taking the leap from the tube based REF150 to a Class D output amplifier is something you should not do without the opportunity to audition the DS450 or DS450M's in your system. There will be a difference in sound, one you may or may not be able to embrace long term.

Audio Reasearch is a fine manufacturer of audio components but I have read more than one testimony of Definition Series amplifier owners who were pleased to return to AR's tube based amps. The DS450's linier power supply is an advantage over a switching power supply in my opinion, but it is still providing voltage and current for a Class D pulse width modulation amplifier.

I will be the first to agree that Class D amplification has come a long way in the past few years as evidenced by my positive impression of the Gato Audio DIA-400 integrated amplifier I reviewed for Audio Aficionado. I was able to compare the DIA-400's Class D output direct to the McIntosh MC2301 tube mono blocks. The dynamics, speed, and robust bottom end were excellent, but in the end I still preferred the special liquidity and silky presentation of the tube amps.

I am not trying to discourage you from making a shift to the DS450/DS450M. I am only suggesting you endure a decent audition and direct comparison in your own system before letting go of your hard earned cash. The DS450 may thrill you beyond the REF150. If it does, you will have your answer.

[kfr01]

Dan:

I've been living with the DS450 in my system for a couple weeks as the Ref. 150 is being sent back to ARC for repair. [an aside -- ARC and my ARC dealer have been superb about the repair].

So, my comments above are based on actual observations relative to the Ref. 150. My experience mirrors yours with the Gato. Dynamics, speed, bottom end grip all go to the DS450. I think I actually prefer the DS450 on a very good low noise/high dynamic range/ high res. recording.

To my ears, however, the DS450 provides less spatial magic and placement, less texture around the primary sound, and a slightly less engaging overall presentation ~ especially for less than perfect recordings.

While I continue to demo the DS450, -- your fundamental point is totally right (as usual)::: I probably need to do some more shopping and listening. I clearly haven't found the right amplifier for me yet. McIntosh integrated, Levinson solid state, ARC Ref. 110, ARC Ref. 150, DS450 have all been in my system over the past few years. Each with positives and negatives...

One of the things I probably need to do is remember that my look to going back to solid state shouldn't be limited to ARC. For a similar price to the DS450 monos, I could be looking at the McIntosh MC601 monos, Levinson 531H monos, Bryston monos, etc.

Cheers

[Ritmo]

Karl,

The monos are better than the stereo version. I had the stereo version and, for the money, it's pretty hard to beat. I also listened to the Classe 600 monos on a side by side comparison and felt the Classe amps were superior to the DS-450.

Yes, the DS runs cool, has fantastic dynamics and a hard to beat bottom end. I found that on the mid and top frequencies the DS did not match the liquidity and extension of the Classes nor the Ref 150.

Hope this helps!

[guitardave]

Suggest you bring home a Ref75 and try it for a few days. It will have a bit more of the immediacy.
Also suggest you try running an ARC preamp. I would be very surprised if it did not improve on running your Esoteric as a preamp...
Why do you leave your amp on all the time? The Ref 150, and 75, warm up pretty quickly. Are you playing music all day?

[kfr01]

Originally Posted by guitardave

Suggest you bring home a Ref75 and try it for a few days. It will have a bit more of the immediacy.
Also suggest you try running an ARC preamp. I would be very surprised if it did not improve on running your Esoteric as a preamp...
Why do you leave your amp on all the time? The Ref 150, and 75, warm up pretty quickly. Are you playing music all day?

Yes, on the weekend I am playing music more or less all day.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problems with the sound of the Ref. 150. My description of relative sonics above shouldn't be viewed as negative. I love the balance struck by the Ref. 150's sonics.

It is the raw ease of use that entices me about the DS series. I've really enjoyed walking up to the house, pressing 'play' on my apple remote app. on my phone, and having the sound start-up. No remembering to turn it off when I leave for a couple hours to run an errand. No jarring the power supply with turn-on activity multiple times a day.

[cmalak]

Originally Posted by kfr01

Yes, on the weekend I am playing music more or less all day. Don't get me wrong, I have no problems with the sound of the Ref. 150. My description of relative sonics above shouldn't be viewed as negative. I love the balance struck by the Ref. 150's sonics. It is the raw ease of use that entices me about the DS series. I've really enjoyed walking up to the house, pressing 'play' on my apple remote app. on my phone, and having the sound start-up. No remembering to turn it off when I leave for a couple hours to run an errand. No jarring the power supply with turn-on activity multiple times a day.

Karl...correct me if I'm wrong but the 5As have powered woofers?? If yes, I am assuming you don't need tons of current/juice to drive the speakers if the amp is primarily going to drive the mid/tweet drivers?? Again, I may be wrong on this but if I am correct and you are leaning SS but still want to have some tube-like qualities in midrange presence, liquidity, and top-end air and spatiality, one idea is to consider moderately-powered Class A SS amplification. You will still get heat from that amp similar to tube amps but it may be the best of both worlds. Depending on your budget, many options to consider.

[dminches]

I own the 5As and despite the fact that the subwoofers are self-powered, they need a good amount of juice. I am currently using a pair of Cary SA 500.1 amps (500 wpc) and they do a very nice job. However, I am in the process of buying a pair of Ayre MX-R mono blocks.

[kfr01]

Originally Posted by cmalak

Karl...correct me if I'm wrong but the 5As have powered woofers?? If yes, I am assuming you don't need tons of current/juice to drive the speakers if the amp is primarily going to drive the mid/tweet drivers?? Again, I may be wrong on this but if I am correct and you are leaning SS but still want to have some tube-like qualities in midrange presence, liquidity, and top-end air and spatiality, one idea is to consider moderately-powered Class A SS amplification. You will still get heat from that amp similar to tube amps but it may be the best of both worlds. Depending on your budget, many options to consider.

No, there's not a need for a ton of juice, but the characteristics of the amplifier still have an impact on the bass from a Vandersteen powered:

The inputs are speaker level so that the powered section is merely a boost to the signal received from the main amplifier. Vandersteen did this so that changing the main amplifier -would- have a coherent impact on overall sound. Thus, an amplifier with warm round bass still sounds warm and round even through the Vandersteen's powered drivers.

Further aiding this effect is the crossover design. The crossover between the main woofers and the 7" midbass driver is a first order, meaning that the 7" driver is asked to perform down below 100hz to a very audible extent. The 7" midbass is not powered by the Vandersteen amplifier, and is entirely driven by the user's main amplifier.

That said, your point is well taken. My only choices aren't ARC digital v. ARC tubes. I am intrigued by Plinius audio's control that can be switched into class A mode for serious listening, but can sit in AB for non-critical listening. I am also interested in Krell's new adaptive bias control.

[kfr01]

Originally Posted by dminches

I own the 5As and despite the fact that the subwoofers are self-powered, they need a good amount of juice. I am currently using a pair of Cary SA 500.1 amps (500 wpc) and they do a very nice job. However, I am in the process of buying a pair of Ayre MX-R mono blocks.

The Ayre MX-Rs are definitely on my list as well, although it would be a step up the price list for me.

Congrats on the purchase. Some Ayre MX-Rs with very short speaker cables to the 5As are one of my current daydream setups.

Cheers