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Power Conditioners Voltage regulation to AC Regeneration |
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#1
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Having an electrician over this week.....
With all the power cable/receptacle talk on here the last few days, figured I'd get some feedback. I'm having an electrician over at the house this week for a couple of minor projects not related to audio/video. I figured that since he was here I might have him take a look at the job the original electrician did when we built our house. He ran two dedicated 20 amp lines to my room, one line for the preamp/digital/analog setup and the second line for the power amplifier between the two speakers. I've never had any noise or hum issues, and to my knowledge, everything seems to work just fine but obviously it wasn't an upgrade so I have nothing to compare it to.
My question is whether or not I should get an estimate for a couple of things I've read online. Are runs of 10 gauge instead of the standard 12 really audibly different? Would it be beneficial to move the system to a subpanel and have that be only for the audio system? Is there anything else you guys can think of that I could have him take a look at while he's here that could give me a positive benefit? - Buck
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Library: Speakers: Avalon Acoustics Isis, Subwoofers: (2) REL Acoustics 212SE Amplification: D’agostino Momentum preamplifier, D’agostino S250 stereo amplifier Digital: dCS Rossini CD/SACD transport, dCS Rossini DAC/streamer/master clock. Analog: Brinkmann Taurus table, Lyra Etna Lambda, Audio Research Ref. Phono 3 |
#2
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Having two dedicated 20 amp lines is good enough in my book. That's what I did back in the day when I built my house. I doubt any further expense of a sub panel or going 10 vs 12 gauge will yield any noticeable results what so ever. You could use that money to buy a nice power conditioner if you don't already have one, if you really want to clean up the power.
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#3
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Having an electrician over this week.....
Hey Buck
If he’s there have him just do a look over making sure all connections are tight to the breaker. Maybe consider changing the outlets (Ivan had listed Furutechs, not sure if he still has them) if that’s something you can’t do, otherwise, you should be set as you stand and listen. Hope your well! |
#4
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Quote:
- Buck
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Library: Speakers: Avalon Acoustics Isis, Subwoofers: (2) REL Acoustics 212SE Amplification: D’agostino Momentum preamplifier, D’agostino S250 stereo amplifier Digital: dCS Rossini CD/SACD transport, dCS Rossini DAC/streamer/master clock. Analog: Brinkmann Taurus table, Lyra Etna Lambda, Audio Research Ref. Phono 3 |
#5
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Can't help you with your Shunyata question, never owned their products but your MC402 is as happy as it will ever be on that dedicated 20 amp line.
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#6
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Buck.......If your 20 amp circuits with #12 copper are 50' or less there is nothing to be gained by going to #10 copper wire. The reason you move to larger gauge wire is to offset a voltage drop or to enable higher current. You are using 20 amp circuit breakers for each of your two dedicated circuits so #12 copper meets the NEC code requirement for the 20A overcurrent protection.
For the sake of discussion lets assume your total circuit lengths from breaker to receptacles are 50'. Using a voltage drop calculation for the load (amps), the wire length (50'), the voltage (120 V), and the wire size (#12 CU), a full 20 amp load on #12 copper wire at 50' will have a voltage drop of 3.4 volts. You are unlikely to ever have a full 20 amp load on either of your dedicated circuits. Your MC402 amplifier is rated at a maximum current draw of 10 amps at 120 volts. The amplifier is unlikely to ever draw more than 5 amps with music playing extremely load. Even then a 5 amp load is not continuous since the current draw from the dedicated circuit mirrors the amplifier's output, and we know music has peaks and valleys that cause the amplifier's output to rise and fall right along with the amplifier's current demand. I calculated a voltage drop for a 10 amp load with #12 copper at 50' and get 1.7 volts drop. The voltage drop for a 5 amp load with the same wire and distance is 0.8 volt. Your source components, preamplifier and phono preamplifier combined loads are less than 4 amps total. That represents a voltage drop of 0.7 volt with #12 wire at 50' length. Your MC402's typical maximum current draw will be about 5 amps. That is 0.8 volt drop from the 120 volt dedicated circuit with #12 wire at 50' length. For comparison the voltage drop for #10 copper wire at 50' with a load of 5 amps is 0.5 volt. The voltage drop for #10 copper wire at 50' with a load of 10 amps is 1.1 volts. The voltage drop for #10 copper wire at 50' with a load of 20 amps is 2.1 volts. So there you have it. Using the information provided it is easy to see there is little gain of any real value to your sound system by going to #10 copper wire over #12 copper wire when the circuit length is 50' or less. The shorter the distance of a dedicated circuit, the smaller the voltage drop. All things considered you could quite easily power your whole sound system from a single 120 volt, 20 amp dedicated circuit with a realistic load of approximately 9 amps. The voltage drop for a 9 amp load over 50' with #12 copper wire is 1.5 volts. The majority of audio components can safely be operated at +/- 5 volts AC from their stated requirements without issue, so you can see that the minor voltage drops outlined above on a #12 copper wire circuit of less than 50' is not an issue. Does any of this stop us crazy audiophiles from installing #10 wire for our dedicated circuits? Probably not. #10 copper wire certainly won't jeopardize the circuit's integrity or safety. It does make it more difficult to terminate the wire to 20 amp rated wall receptacles designed to accept #12 wire, but it isn't impossible. I recommend people install the correct wire size for the overcurrent protection (circuit breaker) as required by the National Electrical Code. To exceed the NEC requirements is not a crime, so make yourself happy if you decide to go that route.
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Dan STUDIO - McIntosh C1000C/P, MC2301 (2), MR88, Aurender N10, Esoteric K-01X, Shunyata Sigma spdif digital cable, Sonos Connect, PurePower 2000, Stillpoints, Furutech Flux 50, Michell Gyro SE, Michell HR Power Supply, SME 309, Ortofon Cadenza Black, Wireworld, Sonus faber Amati Anniversario LIVING ROOM - McIntosh C2300, MC75 (2), MR85, Magnum Dynalab 205, Simaudio MOON Neo 260D-T, Schiit Audio Yggdrasil, Aurender N100H, Shunyata Sigma USB cable, Micro Seiki DD40, Ortofon Cadenza Blue, Nakamichi BX-300, Sony 60ES DAT, PS Audio P10, Furutech Flux 50, Sonos Connect, Stillpoints, Wireworld, Kimber, PMC EB1i, JL Audio f113 VINTAGE - McIntosh MA230, Tandberg 3011A tuner, Olive 04HD, Sony DTC-59ES DAT, McIntosh 4300V, JBL 4312A Last edited by jdandy; 10-21-2017 at 01:29 PM. |
#7
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Thanks Dan, that's above and beyond the call of duty.....I appreciate the detailed info!
- Buck
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Library: Speakers: Avalon Acoustics Isis, Subwoofers: (2) REL Acoustics 212SE Amplification: D’agostino Momentum preamplifier, D’agostino S250 stereo amplifier Digital: dCS Rossini CD/SACD transport, dCS Rossini DAC/streamer/master clock. Analog: Brinkmann Taurus table, Lyra Etna Lambda, Audio Research Ref. Phono 3 |
#8
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There you have it, leave it to Dan to break things down in a logical, rational and educational manner. Thanks for that informative post Dan.
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#9
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Mike approved!
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Ivan FLORIDA MX136, MC1.2KW(10) MC2KW(2), MCD1100, MS750(2) MVP881, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, HT-2 SUBS(2) HT3F(2) WS350(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) XCS350(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U 4K PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" MOTORIZED SCREEN, CINEMA-TECH SEATING, WW PLATINUM CABLES Reference System: ACCUPHASE A300 AMPS, C3900 PRE-AMP, DP1000 CD/SACD TRANSPORT, DC1000 DIGITAL PROCESSOR, DG-68 DIGITAL EQUALIZER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, PS1230 POWER SUPPLY, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, WW PLATINUM CABLES CAPE COD MX150, MC501(2) MC1.2KW(10) MC2301(2) MR88, MVP881, MCD1100, MDA1000, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, ESOTERIC K-01X 30th ANNIVERSARY (BLACK) SACD/CD PLAYER, G02-X CLOCK, HT3F(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(4) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) KALEIDESCAPE STRATO & TERRA SERVERS 80-TB, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U 4K PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" SCREEN, SONUS FABER STRADIVARI, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, FORTRESS SEATING, WW PLATINUM CABLES Analog Rig: CLEARAUDIO INNOVATION WOOD, UNIVERSAL ARM w/ Da VINCI' CART, 2nd UNIVERSAL ARM w/ GOLDFINGER STATEMENT CART, HRS-MXR REFERENCE RACK-GLOSS BLACK w/ M3X SHELVES, AESTHETIX RHEA SIG PHONO-PRE, BRYSTON BHA-1 HEADPHONE AMP, WW PLATINUM CABLES Reference System: BURMESTER 911MK3 AMP(3), 088 PRE-AMP, 089 CD PLAYER, 100 PHONO PRE-AMP, 948 POWER CONDITIONER, ACCUPHASE DG-68 VOICING EQUALIZER, AVID ACUTUS REFERENCE SP TT, GRAHAM PHANTOM II SUPREME ARM, BENZ MICRO LP-S CART, GRANDIOSO P1X/D1X STACK, G1X RUBIDIUM MASTER CLOCK, N05 NETWORK PLAYER, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, SONUS FABER AIDA SPEAKERS, JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(2) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) WW PLATINUM CABLES Library System: GRANDIOSO M1 MONOBLOCK AMPS, C1 LINESTAGE PRE-AMP, K1X CD/SACD PLAYER, G1 MASTER RUBIDIUM CLOCK, E02 PHONO-PRE, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, AERIAL ACOUSTICS 20T V2, AERIAL SW12 SUBS(2), CANTON REF K1’s, VPI HRX TT w/ SDS POWER SUPPLY, ORTOFON CADENZA BLACK CART, KLAUDIO RCM, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2, SHUNYATA OMEGA QR’s, WW PLATINUM CABLES Esoteric/Bryston System: ESOTERIC C02-X PRE-AMP, P-02X TRANSPORT, D02-X DAC, G02-X CLOCK, BRYSTON 28B3 CUBED MONOBLOCK AMPS(4), BRYSTON BHA-1 HEADPHONE AMP, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2(2) EVEREST 8000 POWER CONDITIONER(2) ALTAIRA CG & SG HUBS, AMR-DP777-SE DAC, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, QUADRASPIRE RACK, WW PLATINUM CABLES Accuphase/Canton System: ACCUPHASE E800 INTEGRATED, DP570 CD/SACD PLAYER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, DG-68 VOICING EQUALIZER, PS530 POWER SUPPLY, CANTON REF K3’s, CANTON REF K5’s, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, HRS MXR REFERENCE MAHOGHANY RACK w/ M3X2 SHELVES, WW GOLD CABLES |
#10
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I would suggest checking if both lines are on the same phase in your main box. The simplest way to do that is to look at your panel, if the breakers are one below the other they are on opposite phases (not good). If they are right/left, or skip one on the same side they are on the same phase (good).
CAUTION THIS METHOD SHOULD BE DONE BY QUALIFIED PERSONELL. You can also use an AC volt meter, measure between both neutrals or hots (between both circuits) If it reads more than one or two volts it's out of phase.
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System: ML:5206,5302 Serafino's Nordost Lumin U1 RM15 Last edited by tdelahanty; 10-21-2017 at 09:20 AM. |
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