New JL Audio Subs Owner

[o0OBillO0o]

Originally Posted by blacsno

So I route the subs to the C2300 vs Men220? Then apply use ARO for sub and the Men220 the mains?

Spend a weekend morning and try both

Assumptions:

• there is understanding of speaker and subwoofer placement
• there is an understanding of the measuring methodology for Room Perfect (RP)
• There is understanding on each of the functions of the JL Audio Sub. i.e. ELF, Master/Slave, etc..

Method X:

1. Connect the MEN220 to the Balanced Output 1 of the Pre-amp.
2. Connect Amplifier to the Balanced Output High of the MEN220.
3. Follow the RP instructions in the manual.
4. Power down the system and leave the Subs on.
5. Connect the Subs to the Balanced Output 2 of the Pre-amp.
6. Run Each Subs ARO, independently.

I recommend that the MEN220 be set-up at a processor loop on McIntosh Pre-amp for alternative to Method X.

Method Y:

1. Turn all crossover knobs on the subs to clockwise till they stop.
2. ensure all e.l.f and phase are set to 0
3. Set gain to Master.
4. Set One Subwoofer to Master the other to Slave.
5. Set the JL Sub to either bypass or reset ARO prior to measurement with RP.
6. Connect the MEN220 to the Balanced Output 1 of the Pre-amp.
7. Connect Amplifier to the Balanced Output High of the MEN220.
8. Connect Master Sub to the Balanced Output Low of the MEN220.
9. Follow the MEN220 Owner's manual for Crossover functions- ensuring you set high pass frequency to the "speaker appropriate" setting (I used 40Hz) and the JL Subs are set to low pass mono with a low pass frequency no higher than 160hz.
10. Follow the RoomPerfect set-up procedure (there is a video out there by Ron Cornelius)
11. Ensure you create focus positions if needed after you've run RP.
12. Choose a Equalization curve or create one using the MEN220 Voicing tool- this allows the user to EQ to taste (every studio/theater EQs)

And there are many other methods, but Method Y allows the measurement hardware to account for the system response instead of individually adjusting everything and mixing it together. If you align the JL subs to your room perfectly and then you expertly calibrate your MEN220, separate from the JL Subs, to your room, their resultant or combined effect could have too much or too little of something. You'll require another measurement software/hardware to figure out what are the issues. I personally have not measured my room before and after when using these methods. However, it's prompted me to do so (at a later date). Hopefully it confirms what I hear and help us all better design and set-up our systems.

[chessman]

Originally Posted by o0OBillO0o

I'm not savvy enough to explain to which one is better, but can you help me (at least) out in understanding why even decay times are better than flat frequency response?

Why set each sub to master? I mean I read the same reviews as anyone else-that extol the method you mention. The manual provides a guide for multiple subs. There isn't any hard data that supported either way. In the end, the resultant response is a system response and measuring individual responses then joining them together is just as much as craft-work as rest of HiFi. Our ears hear the system response, why not measure ARO or RP the same way? What about running ARO along, then RP with ARO Active?



Ivan, I know what you're experiencing. I believe it is the fact that listeners just do not like "flat" and we all enjoy the room gain. I can't comment on how my music sounded in the mastering room, but I imagine it's just a flat as can be and the music was allowed to have the greatest effect. The great thing about the MEN220 or the JL Sub is that end users can tweak the calibrated settings to voice the speaker the way they desire the resultant sound system to sound like.

There is no exact way, I have done all the methods described and today I feel that I am getting the best by using RP and EQ. I do enjoy reading how other do it differently.

Here is a picture of what I am talking about:



The blue line frequency response graph (no EQ, lots of traps) does not look too awful, but the 2D "waterfall" graph in the upper right corner shows the problem - a long resonance at 25H. That long decay when everything else is shorter makes makes for "boomy" bass even with a flat frequency response graph. But wait, there's more . I had not expected anything below 30H as that is where the sub rolls off. The room gain at 25 H was the culprit and does not even show on a frequency graph because the program does not plot resonance, just amplitude. Fortunately, the JL Audio amps come with an adjustment specifically at 25 H. I had always assumed it was there to boost the rumble effect for movies. Here it was a lifesaver as I turned it all the way DOWN.

[chessman]

Here is a shot after turning down the ELF adjustment at 25 H and after ARO was run on each sub, with no other EQ in a room with a lot of bass traps:



You can see that 25 H is still just a bit hot on the 2D waterfall graph, but it no longer booms. Believe it or not, your ears can hear a .2 millisecond difference in one bass note's resonance and your brain will decide that is the dominant note and ignore the rest, resulting in a perception of muddy one note bass. Once 25H was tamed the room seemed to have MORE bass and much more realistic sounding bass.

[o0OBillO0o]

Awesome! this is very helpful, what software and hardware are you using? This may be a break through for my audio education.

[chessman]

Bill, so as not to derail Ken's thread any further, i will just post a link:

http://www.audioaficionado.org/acous...er-ii-pro.html

[blacsno]

Originally Posted by chessman

Bill, so as not to derail Ken's thread any further, i will just post a link:

http://www.audioaficionado.org/acous...er-ii-pro.html

No..... not offended at all! I'm just sitting here reading and trying not to have the deer in the headlights look! How on God's green earth am I suppose to learn all this!

Ken

[chessman]

Ken, I would start, as follows:

1) set each sub to master,
2) turn each ELF to zero, and
3) run ARO separate on each sub.

Where do you have them crossed? Are you using an active cross-over or "Y" splitters?

[o0OBillO0o]

Ken.......this thread answers your initial questions and has laid out ways to run ARO and RP separately, RP exclusively, and ARO first then RP. When in doubt stick to the manual, email/contact the manufacturer/dealer, and/or keep asking questions. We're just as into this as you are and willing to help.

[blacsno]

[QUOTE=o0OBillO0o;687568]Spend a weekend morning and try both

Assumptions:

• there is understanding of speaker and subwoofer placement
• there is an understanding of the measuring methodology for Room Perfect (RP)
• There is understanding on each of the functions of the JL Audio Sub. i.e. ELF, Master/Slave, etc..

Method X:

1. Connect the MEN220 to the Balanced Output 1 of the Pre-amp.
2. Connect Amplifier to the Balanced Output High of the MEN220.
3. Follow the RP instructions in the manual.
4. Power down the system and leave the Subs on.
5. Connect the Subs to the Balanced Output 2 of the Pre-amp.
6. Run Each Subs ARO, independently.

Well..... I've test version "X" vs MEN220 handle it all. Hmmmmm does sound different. Can't say "X" was better "original setup"??? My question is should you force a bass sound when the track doesn't have it???? Should I treat the 2 channel sub like "tonal control"?

Ken

[o0OBillO0o]

You can do what you like to get the sound that you like. I do not do as you have suggested.

Method X: ARO on each sub is correcting the response of the sub at the measured point (listening position). The MEN220 is correcting the speaker response at the measured point. However, as stated above, a third measurement device is required to understand the total system response. Method Y suggests using the MEN220 to correct the total response, in lieu of having software and hardware to measure the total system performance.