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Conrad-Johnson It just sounds right

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  #11  
Old 07-06-2016, 08:03 PM
Forte 4A Forte 4A is offline
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Question

In the beginning of the article under highlights Teflon Caps are on the list. He may have been confused w/the product.
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  #12  
Old 07-08-2016, 06:27 AM
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turntable turntable is offline
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This reviewer might have gotten confused and still have played the system out of phase.

He hooked his speakers up in phase (which is incorrect) and wondered why he had no bass - so he switched the phase on his subwoofer. What about the mids and treble coming directly out of his speakers?? he even said what he did wrong and did not fix it - see highlighted below from the review.

No wonder he thinks the cj pre amp is bright in the top end - its still out of phase !!

How this has gone to print is amazingly bad.

Quote:
First, note that the ET3 is phase inverting. This is critical when using subwoofers. I prefer to run my speakers full-range and then use the low-pass crossover on the subwoofers’ plate amplifiers to blend the bass. I initially thought that the ET3 had a weak bass response. Then I remembered to set my subs’ phase to 180 degrees instead of the more common zero degrees. Reversing the speaker wires (at the speakers only) red to black terminal and vice versa while leaving the subs at zero-phase would have also been effective. Once the phase was consistent, the reviewing began.

Last edited by turntable; 07-08-2016 at 07:29 AM.
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  #13  
Old 07-09-2016, 06:41 AM
tima tima is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turntable View Post
...

How this has gone to print is amazingly bad.

Given the fur stirred up here, it's certainly not good for CJ.

Not all sites have the same quality of editing prior to publication.

Good catch, Shane.
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  #14  
Old 07-09-2016, 05:39 PM
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Angry Huge mistake...

"Then I remembered to set my subs’ phase to 180 degrees instead of the more common zero degrees."

So he listened with his main speakers out of phase and his sub went along. What a goof. Good catch.
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  #15  
Old 07-09-2016, 06:27 PM
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Hey guys. I have posted my comments on the review site.

I suggest you guys do the same.

Sloppy reviews from idiots with no idea about how to even hook up the system need to be outed.
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  #16  
Old 07-10-2016, 08:26 AM
plurn plurn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turntable View Post
This reviewer might have gotten confused and still have played the system out of phase.

He hooked his speakers up in phase (which is incorrect) and wondered why he had no bass - so he switched the phase on his subwoofer. What about the mids and treble coming directly out of his speakers?? he even said what he did wrong and did not fix it - see highlighted below from the review.

No wonder he thinks the cj pre amp is bright in the top end - its still out of phase !!

How this has gone to print is amazingly bad.

I think you might be overstating the phase issue. We probably all know the following but I will state it for clarity. Hopefully I get it right.

There is "inverted phase", and there is "out of phase", and they are not the same thing.

Out of phase is when you have the left speaker playing with the opposite phase of the right speaker. This is a very bad situation and causes easily audible aberrations. Everyone that can hear, can hear this easily. No disputes there.

Inverted phase is when you have both speakers with the same phase, but the positive "electrical" signal is going to the negative terminal of the speaker (for both left and right speakers). It is debatable whether inverted phase is easily audible when playing music. Some claim it is, some claim it isn't. Whether it is easily audible or not, it will not change the frequency response, and will not cause "treble emphasis".

Now from what I read, the reviewer had inverted phase (with both main speakers in phase with each other). Initially his subwoofer was out of phase with the woofers of his main speakers, and playing some of the same frequency range (as his main speakers were playing full range), causing "weak bass response" due to cancelation of some bass frequencies due to the subwoofer being out of phase with the woofers of the main speakers. He corrected this issue by setting his subwoofers phase to 180 degrees (inverted phase) to match his main speakers woofers.

Sure he should have inverted the phase of his main speakers and left the subwoofer at zero degrees phase, that would have been preferable. But his chosen solution also works. Either solution would sound pretty much identical when playing music. As I mentioned before, it is debatable wether inverted phase is audible when playing music.

If his left and right speakers were out of phase with each other, that is a whole different story and would invalidate the whole review, but I don't think that is the case here.

Anthony

Last edited by plurn; 07-10-2016 at 08:53 AM.
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  #17  
Old 07-11-2016, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plurn View Post
I think you might be overstating the phase issue. We probably all know the following but I will state it for clarity. Hopefully I get it right.

There is "inverted phase", and there is "out of phase", and they are not the same thing.

Out of phase is when you have the left speaker playing with the opposite phase of the right speaker. This is a very bad situation and causes easily audible aberrations. Everyone that can hear, can hear this easily. No disputes there.

Inverted phase is when you have both speakers with the same phase, but the positive "electrical" signal is going to the negative terminal of the speaker (for both left and right speakers). It is debatable whether inverted phase is easily audible when playing music. Some claim it is, some claim it isn't. Whether it is easily audible or not, it will not change the frequency response, and will not cause "treble emphasis".

Now from what I read, the reviewer had inverted phase (with both main speakers in phase with each other). Initially his subwoofer was out of phase with the woofers of his main speakers, and playing some of the same frequency range (as his main speakers were playing full range), causing "weak bass response" due to cancelation of some bass frequencies due to the subwoofer being out of phase with the woofers of the main speakers. He corrected this issue by setting his subwoofers phase to 180 degrees (inverted phase) to match his main speakers woofers.

Sure he should have inverted the phase of his main speakers and left the subwoofer at zero degrees phase, that would have been preferable. But his chosen solution also works. Either solution would sound pretty much identical when playing music. As I mentioned before, it is debatable wether inverted phase is audible when playing music.

If his left and right speakers were out of phase with each other, that is a whole different story and would invalidate the whole review, but I don't think that is the case here.

Anthony
Anthony. Do you own a cj preamp?. It is very easy to hear the difference. Somewhat exaggerated treble and lack of bass are side effects of not in phase, let alone the singer breathing in when he is supposed to be breathing out. I purposely play my supertweeters phase reversed as they provide a little more sparkle than wired phase correct.


From the cj et3 manual - its the same on every cj preamp manual.

Absolute Phase
Musical notes are heard through the ear’s response to waves of
alternating rise and fall of air pressure. Musical transients are
almost exclusively positive: that is, the initial effect is a rise in pres-
sure. The ear is capable of distinguishing these positive transients
from the musically unnatural alternative of a negative transient (an
initial fall in air pressure). In terms of your stereo system, these
transients are created by your loudspeakers. If the speakers
respond to musical transients by first moving out, they are creating
a rise in pressure, and the system is said to be phase correct. If
they respond by moving in, they create a fall in pressure and the
system is said to be phase inverting. Each component in the stereo
system either preserves the phase of the incoming signal, and is
said to be phase correct, or inverts the phase and is said to be
phase inverting. It is unimportant whether an individual component
is phase correct or phase inverting, as long as the system as a
whole is phase correct. This will be the case if the number of phase
inversions is even (or zero).
The ET3 Preamplifier is phase inverting. If your system has an odd
number of inversions, (for example, if the ET3 is the only phase
inverting unit in the chain) then you must add one phase inversion.
This is conveniently done by reversing the positive and negative
connections to your speakers (be sure to reverse both channels). If
you are not sure about the phase of every piece in your system,
you can establish correct absolute phase by careful listening.
When the system is in correct phase, transients will be noticeably
cleaner and more sharply defined. The effect is especially apparent
on plucked string sounds. A final warning - not all recordings are
phase correct (including some “audiophile” recordings), so listen to
several before concluding your investigation of absolute phase.

Last edited by turntable; 07-11-2016 at 09:37 AM.
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  #18  
Old 07-11-2016, 12:04 PM
plurn plurn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turntable View Post
Anthony. Do you own a cj preamp?. It is very easy to hear the difference. Somewhat exaggerated treble and lack of bass are side effects of not in phase, let alone the singer breathing in when he is supposed to be breathing out. I purposely play my supertweeters phase reversed as they provide a little more sparkle than wired phase correct.


From the cj et3 manual - its the same on every cj preamp manual.

Absolute Phase
...
Hi Shane,

Yes I have an ET5. Whether my system is set up phase correct or phase inverted does not change how bright the treble is. It certainly does not make a recording of someone that is breathing out, sound like they are breathing in. It does not even change the soundstage depth or width.

Where you say "I purposely play my supertweeters phase reversed as they provide a little more sparkle than wired phase correct". If you alternate wiring your supertweeters (trying it in correct phase and inverted phase) while not changing the phase of your main speakers, you will get different cancelation or boost of the frequencies around the crossover frequency (between the main speakers and the supertweeters). So of course it will sound different (with more or less sparkle) if you are only changing the phase of the supertweeters while keeping the phase of the mains the same. This is the same issue as having a subwoofer the same phase, or opposite phase with the main speakers. It is the same sort of thing as switching between zero phase and 180 degrees phase on your subwoofer - it drastically changes the sound.

This is not the same as having your system phase correct or phase inverted.

The real question is, if you play your speakers in the setup they are in now (with whatever phase you have picked for mains and supertweeters and any others), and then you swap the phase of _all_ of them, is there any difference in sound when playing music and is there difference in sparkle?

But anyway - like I said it is debatable whether correct or inverted phase (of the system) is audible in music and people will debate this.

If you still find this conversation interesting and worth pursuing (I do), there are some questions I have about correct or inverted phase.

If phase being correct or inverted is important, at which frequency range is it important? I ask this because a lot of speakers are designed with for example the midrange drivers phase/polarity wired opposite to the other drivers. This is a valid choice by the speaker designer and it typically relates to the crossover slopes/type used (example types of crossover first order, second order, third order, fourth order crossovers. Not sure which type benefits from inverting the phase of the drivers in relation to each other but some do). Not all speakers are designed this way but a lot are.

So in cases like that, is it more important to have the bass phase correct at the expense of the other frequency ranges? Or is it more important to have the midrange phase correct at the expense of the other ranges? Or the treble? Whenever I read about people claiming that the phase of the system is important, they don't cover this important question. It is not mentioned in the section from the ET3 manual you quoted and I have not found it anywhere else either. CJ does mention "The effect is especially apparent on plucked string sounds" so that could be midrange or bass? Or maybe even treble. Which is more important?

Anthony
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  #19  
Old 07-11-2016, 12:26 PM
g_georgi g_georgi is offline
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I'm very sensitive to treble in general and find that my ET3SE does not accentuate treble. It's wired correctly with respect to phase and my living room consists of a large leather couch, glass coffee table and hardwood flooring. No carpeting or other sound absorbing material present...not ideal I know but yet my system is not bright sounding.

I also heard the ET3 in store, in an untreated room played on B&W speakers (which have been characterized by some as bright sounding), and didn't find that it emphasized treble.

So it may be very well that the reviewer wired up the system wrong.
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  #20  
Old 07-11-2016, 05:16 PM
stereoquest stereoquest is offline
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Plurn,

What do you think is happening to the speakers driver when wired in or out of phase ? When the coil receives current in phase the driver is forced outward ...... Out of phase it is pulled inward . The two sound very different . With most Wilson speakers it will be more obvious becsuse the mid is wired out of phase with the bass driver .... Out of phase will cause loss of bass and accentuated treble in this speaker which is is easily heard..

What is concerning regarding the review is the reviewer does not actually know what product he has . He writes about the se model but clearly shows the standard version he then goes on to ' correct ' phase of the sub -- and leave the speakers out of phase ..... He does not know what he is doing but knows something is not right . I have never heard any tubed cj product ever have the traits he was referring to . He definitely got it badly wrong .
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