Moving up the Shindo line of products

[FranklinLG]

LabPro - welcome and thanks for the input. I want to direct this query to you and Sibelius, as well as anyone else with direct Shindo experience. I currently own the Leben RS100U, but recently had a friend's Shindo Masseto in my system. I've become nearly sold on making this move, but, due to recent system changes, I've actually freed up enough spare cash to possibly jump to the Vosne Romanee. I would welcome any input either of you could provide in clarifying the move from the Masseto to the Vosne or to the Giscours (which is currently outside my financial comfort zone). And while I realize you've moved on up to the Giscours, LP, I'd still enjoy reading about your thoughts on the VR.

Any input either of you could provide with helping to make this decision would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

J

O'96s <=Auditorium A23 Speaker Cables <=Sophia Electric 300B mono blocks <=Leben RS100U <=Oppo 95 | Leben RS-30EQ<=Rega P9<=Koetsu Urishi Vermillion

[JohnThomas]

Originally Posted by Labpro

I wanted to offer some perspective on the upgrade path for Shindo preamps.

I agree 100% with the earlier comments regarding the VR.

I owned the VR for about 6 months and definitely loved what it did for vocals among other things.

I was looking for more detail and a larger sound stage so I traded the VR for my friends Giscours preamp + some cash (whats a few grand between friends).

The difference in my system, in my room, was simply amazing. Alot more resolution especially in the base and mid-base, plus a huge sound-stage. Definately worth the $$.




System Includes: Shindo GM-70's Monoblocks, Shindo Giscours preamp, Coincident Pure Reference Speakers, Shindo Silver interconnects, Kubala Sosna Elation speaker cables, Lampizator Level 4 DAC, Naim Hard Drive Server, Shunyata power cords with Triton AC conditioner.

Hi Labpro,

That's some serious equipment you are carrying. You will fit in well here with the heavy hitters. I see you have the Lampizator level 4. I demoed one of those a couple months ago good stuff. I also got to listen to the Shindo Massetto and VR. I can only image how great the Giscours sounds. My dealer loves it...

John

[chessman]

Labpro, welcome aboard!

[Labpro]

Originally Posted by FranklinLG

LabPro - welcome and thanks for the input. I want to direct this query to you and Sibelius, as well as anyone else with direct Shindo experience. I currently own the Leben RS100U, but recently had a friend's Shindo Masseto in my system. I've become nearly sold on making this move, but, due to recent system changes, I've actually freed up enough spare cash to possibly jump to the Vosne Romanee. I would welcome any input either of you could provide in clarifying the move from the Masseto to the Vosne or to the Giscours (which is currently outside my financial comfort zone). And while I realize you've moved on up to the Giscours, LP, I'd still enjoy reading about your thoughts on the VR.

Any input either of you could provide with helping to make this decision would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

J

O'96s <=Auditorium A23 Speaker Cables <=Sophia Electric 300B mono blocks <=Leben RS100U <=Oppo 95 | Leben RS-30EQ<=Rega P9<=Koetsu Urishi Vermillion

Hello FranklinLG,

And thanks to everyone for the warm welcome!

FranklinLG, I am not familiar with the Leben RS100U, but my Shinda dealer carries Leben also.

You asked about the Shindo Vosne Romanee. I owned one and just upgraded to the Giscours 2 months ago.

I can tell you that I listened to preamps from EAR, Art Audio, Nagra, Audio Note, AR, Conrad Johnson and others. In my system and room, none offered the emotional connection to a live performance as did the Shindo. I mean it was that could!!

I'm describing the sound from my digital front end. A friend has a Shindo Vosne Romanee and plays only LP's. In his system, in his room, I've never heard music sound so real. I'm just a student of LP technology, so just learning.

If you can, spend the extra cash an go for the Vosne Romanee....you'll be glad you did.

[Labpro]

Originally Posted by JohnThomas

Hi Labpro,

That's some serious equipment you are carrying. You will fit in well here with the heavy hitters. I see you have the Lampizator level 4. I demoed one of those a couple months ago good stuff. I also got to listen to the Shindo Massetto and VR. I can only image how great the Giscours sounds. My dealer loves it...

John

Hello John,

Thanks for the warm welcome.

I got the Giscours about 2 months ago, and really like it. Expensive but worth it.

Curious on your impression of the Lampizator Level 4 DAC. I got the one with volume control. I think it may be one of the best DAC's out there for under $6,000. Lucas (designer out of Poland) is a great guy who constantly seeks to improve his gear at a very fair price.

Originally Posted by Labpro

I wanted to offer some perspective on the upgrade path for Shindo preamps.

I agree 100% with the earlier comments regarding the VR.

I owned the VR for about 6 months and definately loved what it did for vocals among other things.

I was looking for more detail and a larger sound stage so I traded the VR for my friends Giscours preamp + some cash (whats a few grand between friends).

The difference in my system, in my room, was simply amazing. Alot more resolution especially in the base and mid-base, plus a huge sound-stage. Definately worth the $$.

Hope this helps.

System Includes: Shindo GM-70's Monoblocks, Shindo Giscours preamp, Coincident Pure Reference Speakers, Shindo Silver interconnects, Kubala Sosna Elation speaker cables, Lampizator Level 4 DAC, Naim Hard Drive Server, Shunyata power cords with Triton AC conditioner.

That is a killer system.

[sibelius]

Originally Posted by FranklinLG

LabPro - welcome and thanks for the input. I want to direct this query to you and Sibelius, as well as anyone else with direct Shindo experience. I currently own the Leben RS100U, but recently had a friend's Shindo Masseto in my system. I've become nearly sold on making this move, but, due to recent system changes, I've actually freed up enough spare cash to possibly jump to the Vosne Romanee. I would welcome any input either of you could provide in clarifying the move from the Masseto to the Vosne or to the Giscours (which is currently outside my financial comfort zone). And while I realize you've moved on up to the Giscours, LP, I'd still enjoy reading about your thoughts on the VR.

Any input either of you could provide with helping to make this decision would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

J

O'96s <=Auditorium A23 Speaker Cables <=Sophia Electric 300B mono blocks <=Leben RS100U <=Oppo 95 | Leben RS-30EQ<=Rega P9<=Koetsu Urishi Vermillion

Based on my experience, I would recommend a move from the Masseto to the VR if you can afford to upgrade. I thought it was a noticeable improvement in my system. Read Art Dudley's article in Stereophile on the VR (it should be available in the archives on-line). IMO, he does a very good job describing the difference between the Masseto and the VR. The VR has more detail than the Masseto but also is slightly darker and richer in character. Both are extremely musical preamps that touch the emotions. I've mentioned it before. If my place was on fire and I could only save one piece of gear, it would be the VR.

The only thing about the Shindo preamps that I think they could improve is the phono stage. A lot of people with the higher end Shindo preamps still use 3rd party (mostly Auditorium Hommage) SUT's. I'm suprised they just don't incorporate the Hommage into the preamp instead of using the customized Lundahl. The Lundahl is by no means bad. However, if you find something that seems to works better, why not just incorporate that?

My $.02.

[Loop4fun]

Originally Posted by sibelius

The only thing about the Shindo preamps that I think they could improve is the phono stage. A lot of people with the higher end Shindo preamps still use 3rd party (mostly Auditorium Hommage) SUT's. I'm suprised they just don't incorporate the Hommage into the preamp instead of using the customized Lundahl. The Lundahl is by no means bad. However, if you find something that seems to works better, why not just incorporate that?

My $.02.

Scott, By "phono stage", you mean the built in SUT? I'm under the impression that even the Hommage is run through the VR's phono stage. I'm running a Dynavector 20X2L into the MC input of the VR and not wanting for anything. The relatively inexpensive 20X2L is spectacular with the VR's Lundahl SUT.

I'm curious about the Hommage, but don't know about it's synergy with the Dynavector line. I was attracted to the Vosne Romanee in part for it's outstanding phono stage and built in SUT. It surpasses my expectations.

Bill

[sibelius]

Originally Posted by Loop4fun

Scott, By "phono stage", you mean the built in SUT? I'm under the impression that even the Hommage is run through the VR's phono stage. I'm running a Dynavector 20X2L into the MC input of the VR and not wanting for anything. The relatively inexpensive 20X2L is spectacular with the VR's Lundahl SUT.

I'm curious about the Hommage, but don't know about it's synergy with the Dynavector line. I was attracted to the Vosne Romanee in part for it's outstanding phono stage and built in SUT. It surpasses my expectations.

Bill

Yes, I mean built in SUT. IMO, the Hommage betters the Lundahl in the VR. At the price points of the VR and Giscours it would be nice if we did not have to go out and get a separate 3rd party product to experience the best sound.

That being said, you are correct that everything depends on the cartridge you are using. I have primarily been using a Koetsu (Onyx Platinum) and like the top of the line Hashimoto SUT as much as the Hommage (at less than 1/2 the price) and more than the VR's internal SUT. However, my understanding is that the Shindo's have been "voiced" using SPU type cartridges and almost everyone I know who has used an SPU type cartridge with a Shindo preamp prefers the 3rd party Hommage over the internal preamp transformer.

Unfortunately, I can't comment on the Dynavector - to date I have not used one.

[pitch perfect]

Originally Posted by sibelius

Based on my experience, I would recommend a move from the Masseto to the VR if you can afford to upgrade. I thought it was a noticeable improvement in my system. Read Art Dudley's article in Stereophile on the VR (it should be available in the archives on-line). IMO, he does a very good job describing the difference between the Masseto and the VR. The VR has more detail than the Masseto but also is slightly darker and richer in character. Both are extremely musical preamps that touch the emotions. I've mentioned it before. If my place was on fire and I could only save one piece of gear, it would be the VR.

The only thing about the Shindo preamps that I think they could improve is the phono stage. A lot of people with the higher end Shindo preamps still use 3rd party (mostly Auditorium Hommage) SUT's. I'm suprised they just don't incorporate the Hommage into the preamp instead of using the customized Lundahl. The Lundahl is by no means bad. However, if you find something that seems to works better, why not just incorporate that?

My $.02.

The outboard step ups still run into the phono stage, so the statement is not entirely accuarate. Shindo makes renowned phono stages. In fact, the entire preamp could be thought of as a phono stage with linestage input. The entire phono circuit and line circuit are tied at the hip, so to speak.

Like I've mentioned many times before, proper matching of the on board step up and your phono cartridge are paramount to achieving best performance. The on board step up is *designed for low impedance cartridges*. Any other type of cartridge should use the MM input with an outboard step up transformer (therefore bypassing the internal step up) - thereby matching proper impedance/electrical parameters for the cartridge in use.

If Shindo included the Hommage step up transformer (and he wouldn't, it's not even his design, it's Keith Aschenbrenners @ Auditorium 23's) in the Shindo preamps you would be expecting to pay another $4k+ over retail- or more.

Yes, the Hommage is extraordinary, and running it into the MM input is the ultimate way to enjoy the Shindo phono stage, for some folks, but the step up is only a small part of the electrical puzzle. The rest being the actual phono circuit, which runs through the line circuit, output transformer, so on an so forth...

This is the reason Shindo includes MM inputs: Contrary to popular belief, it's NOT to use MM cartridges- it is to bypass the internal step up and use an outboard step up transformer of **your choice**, for your cartridge.

A little known fact, is, if you wanted to order a Shindo preamp without an on board step up, I can do this. But it only reduces the price $400~ or so. I don't recommend this, since the onboard step up gives you installation flexibility.

Btw -Shindo makes the 'Arome' MC step up transformer for this very reason. This is an outboard step up transformer to maximize the SPU's performance, much like the A23 Hommage does.

Best,
-Matt