Ayre Ax-5 Review in Soundstage

[ctsooner]

Pass is going to sound more powerful due to the fact that it's a much more powerful amp. It's also got a fair amount of feedback in it's design and that's going to make a big difference on a speaker that is ported and has the bass that the B&W has. That said, I have listened with my AX5 Twenty to the 803D3 at a local shop and even they were in shock as to how awesome they sounded. If surely filled their large room and moved plenty of air. Yes, you like Pass better, but to my ears as well as a few others I've spoken with, we like the bass quality on the Ayre better. If you don't, we are happy for you.

The Duh comment was pretty funny btw. made me smile.

As for Alex wanted you to use your dealer, of course he does and he should. Why shouldn't you? Why do folks use a dealer and not want to ask them the question? Ayre isn't set up for that and honestly, most manufactures aren't and shouldn't' be. They are there to take care of problems their dealers share with them. I know for fact that there are many customers they deal with directly as some aren't close to a dealer.

I don't care if you don't care about who's selling stuff out the back door. I simply stated a fact and why that kills the resale of those products vs other companies who deal with dealers properly. That practice killed Levinson and Krell years ago. It's why Dan was kicked out of Krell and his son too. Mark had similar problems back in the day and I know that because my ex was his lawyer and I remember some of the problem he encountered.

Either go dealer direct or don't. If you are really going both ways, then tell the dealers as that's fair business practice in this industry. Morals matter to some of us. Some most want to think they got a great deal. JMHO

[BillK]

Originally Posted by ctsooner

I don't care if you don't care about who's selling stuff out the back door. I simply stated a fact and why that kills the resale of those products vs other companies who deal with dealers properly.

Pass also does the same when it comes to "B" stock. For most companies, "B" stock are cosmetically blemished units, or units that failed out of the box and were repaired.

I've been told by several people that at Pass, when they run out of B stock they summarily declare new units off the line to be "B" stock and just sell new units at a lower cost.

There's nothing wrong with that, but as with their other policy, it does draw down the future value of used gear.

Really, the main drawback of Pass for me is simply the power draw and the heat generated, as I leave my gear on 24x7x365.

[aardvarkbark]

Originally Posted by BillK

The AX-5 Twenty has more than enough power for the 803 D2s.

I can't explain why you experienced what you did, but if you prefer the Pass, good for you; nothing wrong with it.

I guess I got stuck with B stock from Ayre.

[aardvarkbark]

Originally Posted by BillK

....I've been told by several people that at Pass, when they run out of B stock they summarily declare new units off the line to be "B" stock and just sell new units at a lower cost....

so, if I understand this, you're claiming that everything PASS sells is B stock?

[audio bill]

Originally Posted by aardvarkbark

so, if I understand this, you're claiming that everything PASS sells is B stock?

Rather I believe the claim is that they sometimes sell A stock as B stock at a discounted price.

[ctsooner]

aardvark bark, let's be real for a second. You weren't sold B stock by Ayre and you know it. Ayre and Pass are two totally different companies. Pass is known for it's sales practices that we have listed above. Nothing wrong with that, but what is the true market value for their gear? Most folks will pay list or get a 'deal' with them. Ayre sells at list nearly all the time, even if you are close with your dealer. Some will get a discount, but in the end they keep their value a bit better for resale purposes. That was the only point made.

Yes, they sell some A stock as B stock to move it. That's their business model and there is nothing wrong with it if you don't care as a consumer that someone may get the same box as you do, but they are paying 20 or more % higher price. Over the long haul, that's usually not the best thing to do as folks find out and get upset and they should (personal opinion).

In regards to bass and Ayre, it's as zero feedback design which sounds it's best in the mid bass and higher. That's the magic spot, but Ayre does a great job in the bass regions (this is where many of the zero feedback designs can be less powerful). Bass loves feedback, but the rest of the sound spectrum doesn't. If you have ported speakers they may or may not work best with zero feedback designs. That's all in system matching. I know MANY B&W owners (remember that I don't love their speakers) who love it with Ayre and that's why many of their dealers sell both lines and demo with together. In your room and your system, it sounds like the Ayre isn't the best match up. That's your situation, so when I say the AX5 Twenty has plenty of clean and very deep bass, it does. In MY system. My room is tuned to deliver clean and deep bass without standing waves. I don't have the 50hz rattling of the walls, ceiling or floors so I can go very deep and I do on some material. The Ayre moves plenty of bass and the quality is about as good as it gets. I will put it's bass up against the Pass in my room as I've had both in here. Many amps can move a ton of air if your system is up for it, but most are a tad tubby.

Bass is the most expensive part of the spectrum to get correct and like anything else, there are trade offs. I'm sure you will come back and tell us all how you Pass has better quality and not just quantity of bass. I personally feel that you feel upset with Ayre because they want their customers to use their wonderful dealer network just like other manufactures' would do in other industries. I can't imagine calling up the maker of an auto part that has failed instead of the dealer or calling Audio USA when I have a problem with my S7. They'd promptly ask me to call the dealer of my choice wouldn't they?

Why do you feel audio should be different? Just because many companies are now direct sell, doesn't mean that some of the larger and better companies out there don't utilize their dealers. That's what dealers get paid to do. When folks go around the dealer network, it makes the dealer feel like crap as they want to help you have a great customer experience.

I know many in this industry and am in constant contact with them. Not just companies who 's products I own and love, but many companies and I can't even imagine going directly to the manufacture with problems. I will always go through the dealer, unless my product is not sold through a dealer. I've been taught to try and take care of things at the lowest possible level. Must be my father being in retail and my military life, but to me that's just a professional curtesy. Did you have a problem with your dealer? If so, without naming names, what was the problem?

I'm honestly trying to understand where you are coming from in your constant hatred of the nice folks at Ayre who are all passionate about their company and it's owner, their products and they customer service. I know enough folks over there to know how deeply they care and if they read your comments, they'd be very upset I would think but I also bet the first thing they'd say is that they want their customers to use their dealers first.

Dead horse over to you.....

[Blackstone]

I am curious, CT and Aardvark, how loud do you guys listen to your music, respectively? The B&Ws have a reputation for being power hungry. Doesn't the power deficit tend to show up at higher volume levels?

[ctsooner]

I would think the deficit would show up at higher levels as it does in most speakers. I listen at above average at times. I have been knowns for short periods to push that envelope, but rarely. I can still enjoy music at realistic levels I guess, lol. Every component is a compromise and that goes for speakers in the plus 500k range too. I guess I love the zero feedback designed electronics as they sound more correct to me and I've never had problem with getting deep and tight/musical bass as I match properly and listen at realistic levels. We all hear differently. The other thing I've learned is that many of us go to live events often and realize you don't need to keep your head buried inside a piano to know how it's supposed to sound. I played drums for years and years, but others know full well how a specific drum should sound (although drums are not tuned the way other instruments are, so they aren't always exact).

[BillK]

Originally Posted by audio bill

Rather I believe the claim is that they sometimes sell A stock as B stock at a discounted price.

That's correct.

Normally, when a manufacturer runs out of B stock items for a product, they are out.

What I was told is that on several occasions when Pass ran out of B stock they would just mark A stock as B stock to move it out the door at a lower price as even at a B stock price point Pass still makes a nice profit on the sale.

However this does in effect shaft local dealers trying to move A stock Pass gear, which was the context within which this tale was relayed.

[ctsooner]

Totally agree with Bill. Devaluing your product to move it makes no sense if you are as good as you say you are. Stand behind the product like Ayre, Vandersteen, Rowland, and so many others do. No, you don't get discounts, you get what you paid for and when you upgrade the company will charge you the fair market difference so you don't feel the need to keep selling and losing money and buying to get the better sound. 10 year life cycles for upgrades are the norm at Vandy and Ayre right now. That's really good for audio.

When I was getting back into doing my system a few years ago, I did the research and totally discounted Pass because of their business practices. I listened to their gear up in NH at Walt's and it was nice, but didn't blow me away for the price. When I asked Walt about the B stock and discounts he didn't really even want to talk about it, but said he could probably get them for me. I then spoke with one of his top sales people and he opened up and said who much he hated to sell Pass gear because of how the dealers are really treated and how they whore the product out. Not my words folks. The facts are out there and easy to find. If someone like aardbark are happy because he gets more current or wattage or whatever from a 250w/per channel Pass amp than his Ayre AX5 Twenty that is one of the most refined and musical integrated you can buy, then so be it and I'm happy for him.

I find it amazing that he posts on forums about what great customer service Pass offers and then gets upset at Ayre for wanting him to use his dealer whom he purchased is amp from is really regrettable. He loses me there completely. Pass basically says to their dealers, you suck and we will see out the back door and screw you and then we will service your clients so that you don't have the chance to help them fix a problem or answer a question and build your relationship even more.

Aardvark says he's a consultant and gives us his professional opinion on customer service and used this example for his clients. If his clients knew the TRUE story as to what's going on here, I bet they'd fire his ass quickly. Sorry, but before my MS hit, I was one of the top 1% (my numbers proved it and the awards were there within my industry) Executive Retained Recruiters in the world. I'm also a retired Naval Commander who is a Surface Warfare Officer (put on full Commander at age 37 which is years younger than most ever will). That's not bragging, it's sharing that many of us have accomplishments within our non audiophile lives. I can easily turn the tables on crapping on Ayre wanting to use their dealer network to service their customers, by sharing the truth on how poorly Pass screws over their dealer network and that offering their great customer service directly is not the way to do business for the long haul regardless of how good or average your products may be or become.

The proof is in the truth.