The Sonic Role of a Preamplifier

[PHC1]

I'm not against passive preamp/amp combo that are built into a unit like some audio manufacturers do. It's been taken into account and properly designed to work with no impedance issues and no long interconnects since it is all in the same box.

[trponhunter]

Then it might not work, as I said it can be system dependent

[jimtranr]

"Uncolored" is no less an elusive concept when even "live" recordings are employed as the evaluating source (and I like "live" recordings best in this role myself). That's because mike selection (Schoeps, Neumann, Telefunken, or whatever), mike number and placement, and the production values that go into mixing decisions color the resulting product even before it arrives at the in-home program-source component.

In this context, my take is that what we define as "neutral" is in nearly all cases at most a best guess based on what we think is true to the original source. "Nearly" because I doubt that most of us have access to the performance venue or control room, to say nothing of the mindsets of those at the engineering and production ends, in which the recording birthed.

I have three home systems. Two of them utilize an active preamp, one a single-source passive attenuator (thanks, Dan, I like that term better than "preamp" or "line stage", given the unit's function) to feed its respective power amp. I'm happy with the performance of each in its appointed role and place.

But I'd note that even the "passive" is colored to the extent that I selected a pot (however high-quality its rep) over a fixed-resistor array and one brand of resistor over another as its output "engine".

[rushca01]

Glad I found this thread. I’m slowly building my two channel setup and recently bought a McIntosh mc402. I am slated to buy a c2300 preamp so I can run a streaming device like a Sonica or node2 but both of these can act as preamps which. Now I’m more confused about buying the c2300 after reading this.

[ylee]

Originally Posted by rushca01

Glad I found this thread. I’m slowly building my two channel setup and recently bought a McIntosh mc402. I am slated to buy a c2300 preamp so I can run a streaming device like a Sonica or node2 but both of these can act as preamps which. Now I’m more confused about buying the c2300 after reading this.

My recommendation is to buy the C2300.

[jdandy]

Originally Posted by rushca01

Glad I found this thread. I’m slowly building my two channel setup and recently bought a McIntosh mc402. I am slated to buy a c2300 preamp so I can run a streaming device like a Sonica or node2 but both of these can act as preamps which. Now I’m more confused about buying the c2300 after reading this.

rushca01.......Welcome to Audio Aficionado.

Your McIntosh MC402 will mate perfectly with the McIntosh C2300 preamplifier. The combination of a tube preamplifier and solid state power amplifier delivers a remarkably satisfying musical presentation. You will not achieve the same level of performance by driving the MC402 directly from the Oppo Sonica. Although the variable analog output stage of the Sonica is decent, it does not rise to the performance level of the C2300 preamplifier. You will get considerabley better performance using the Sonica in Bypass Mode connected via balanced interconnects to the McIntosh C2300. The same can be said of the Bluesound Node 2. As a conrol device to feed an amplifier directly it will fall way short of the C2300 performance and versatility. If your intent is to operate the Sonica or Node 2 wireless to drive whole home speaker systems you will still reap improved two channel performance with your MC402 by including the C2300 in the system.

[rushca01]

Originally Posted by jdandy

rushca01.......Welcome to Audio Aficionado.

Your McIntosh MC402 will mate perfectly with the McIntosh C2300 preamplifier. The combination of a tube preamplifier and solid state power amplifier delivers a remarkably satisfying musical presentation. You will not achieve the same level of performance by driving the MC402 directly from the Oppo Sonica. Although the variable analog output stage of the Sonica is decent, it does not rise to the performance level of the C2300 preamplifier. You will get considerabley better performance using the Sonica in Bypass Mode connected via balanced interconnects to the McIntosh C2300. The same can be said of the Bluesound Node 2. As a conrol device to feed an amplifier directly it will fall way short of the C2300 performance and versatility. If your intent is to operate the Sonica or Node 2 wireless to drive whole home speaker systems you will still reap improved two channel performance with your MC402 by including the C2300 in the system.

Thanks for the reply, much appreciated. I bought the amp from audio classics and they are holding the c2300 for me, great people to deal with. I’ll stick with the plan to get the c2300 and either the node or Sonica.

[bart]

Originally Posted by rushca01

Thanks for the reply, much appreciated. I bought the amp from audio classics and they are holding the c2300 for me, great people to deal with. I’ll stick with the plan to get the c2300 and either the node or Sonica.

Good plan.

And welcome to AA!

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by rushca01

Thanks for the reply, much appreciated. I bought the amp from audio classics and they are holding the c2300 for me, great people to deal with. I’ll stick with the plan to get the c2300 and either the node or Sonica.

Smart decision.

[Msegal]

Originally Posted by Jerome W

Yes, and we could add that the preamp should not add neither loose any information of the signal. But saying this does not say much imho about the relative importance and role of the preamp in the system. It implies also that if you have only a digital source which has variable outputs, then you do not need any preamp ?

Imho the preamp is the soul of the electronic chain, just after the source. Its influence on the final result imho is much higher than the one of power amps. At the time I had the Wilson Audio WP8's, which are supposed to be a difficult load, I used up to 4 preamps in my main system and 5 very different power amps. The differences in sound were much higher when switching preamps with a single power amp than when doing the opposite ie switching power amps with the same preamp.
With very difficult to drive speakers, the major role will be played by the power amp. It is a bit like that with my Rega RS10 speakers which are pretty difficult to drive.
With the modern trend in hifi of huge power amps, the speakers makers do not often focus on easy load, stable impedance and so on. The filters are often pure energy suckers when it comes to "high end" speakers. So you need very powerful amps. But still, as long as you give them enough power, most often the differences in sound won't be huge with various high quality power amps.
And with most speakers on the market ( it is even more true with high eff ones), the preamp will really be the heart of it.

If you compare with photography, I would almost say that the sensor, its nature and quality of building, is the source. Nowadays most full size sensors are very close to each other no matter the brand.
The speakers are the lens. That makes the biggest difference in the final result. The power amp would be the size of the sensor and it is in direct relation with the lens used.
And the preamp would be your action in the M mode of the settings or the software that calculates the exposure and focus in the P mode. Ultimately, this action will give very different images of the same scene and will have a predominant role.

Imho the preamp sets the focus and exposure. It can make the same system sound average or fabulous.

On my main speakers, you can use Set amps of 8 watts costing 3000 euros, or a vintage McIntosh SS amp like the MC2100, or the mighty MC2301's or 1.2K costing 30000 euros and you won't hear a big difference. This is also the case with my Audio Note speakers.
I use 2 very different TT's. With 3 different carts. Of course you can hear differences in sound for each cart and each TT and arms but fundamentally, you are not changing so much the sound of the system.
But the change of the preamp and phono preamp makes a huge difference in sound.
With various preamps, the tone, the image, the weight of the notes, the frequency response, EVERYTHING in the sound changes a lot.

Sorry for this long post but imho the role of the preamp in the system is so important that I could not express myself with less words.

I really enjoyed your post.
I have also thought of a stereo in photographic terms.
My analysis was more of enlarging the negative, yes I’m that old.

Take a MC cartridge with an output of 0.5 mV and amplify it many times until the amplifier is putting out 20 volts or about 1000X.

The clarity of this “picture “ will depend upon all the magnifying stages. The earlier the distortion the larger the impact upon the picture.

The key regarding preamplifiers, as mentioned earlier is that the preamp will buffer the signal from the source (offering a very high impedance) and output a very low impedance signal to the amplifier. This requires a much more robust output stage then is typically found in a source component. Look at how much real estate is used in a typical preamplifier output stage compared to that if a source.

I have done the passive preamp, no preamp and high end preamp dance. I will always use a preamp in the future even if I don’t need switching capabilities.

Mike S.