Accuphase preamps

[spurv]

Hello. And excuse my english.

For 2 month ago i had a fantastic McIntosh setup:
McIntosh C48
McIntosh MC1.2KW.

But, a Accuphase dealer gave me a opportunity i could not refuse. A Great deal on a Accuphase E-470.

It arraived in the beginning of may.

I was first abit "meh" how it sounded. But afte a short evening of breakin, i could not stop listen to all its detail, its "snappy" bass and a stereo image to die for! And its never gets hars!!! Everything sound so seperated and well controlled.

This is my first meeting with accuphase. And im shocked!!! It beats my McIntosh combo on almost every points. OK, MC sounds bolder for shure, but the Accuphase got clearity, details, emotion and "body". Its like Bodybuilding vs fitness :P. Both setup are great.

After some testing, i ordering Accuphase DC-37, i now beliving so much in Accuphase, that i ordering a near 10.000$ dac, unheard!!!

I sold my own DAC (Audio GD Master 7, fanstastic dac!!) and my McIntosh C48 last week as well.

This weekend i tried the Accuphase E-470 as preamp on my MC1.2KW, its bolder than E-470 alone.. but in a good way. It aint near as "bold" as the Mcintosh system i had. And i feel im getting all the good thing from the Accuphase sound, with more flesh.

So, here goes... I putting my eyes on this two: Accuphasce C-2420 and C-2820.... And will keep my MC1.2KW. How do you think this combo will work? I read that the MC1.2KW has a Input sensitivity on 5v.. my E-470 got a 1.5v output (cant fint the max value). The other two preamps i mention got 2v (continous output, 50ohm).

I think i will go for the C-2420 since the price up to the C-2820 is near the double. The C-2420 should beat the E-470 preamp part with a good mile or two...

[wawa_chan]

I own a C-2420 so I can only comment on that model. There was another thread discussing the C-2420 a while ago (I suggest searching for it). In that thread I commented that the AAVA circuit in the C-2120 is the same as the C-2420 per Accuphase. If you don't need the expensive phono option or the few other added features in the C-2420 then I recommend saving $$ and going with the C-2120.... Or go all out for the C-2820.

I love my C-2420, it's fantastic. However, most likely I'd be just as happy with the C-2120... Maybe better off since I can add the DAC-40 option, which is not possible with the C-2420. BTW, I think Ivan posted the retail of the AD phono option for the C-2420... It's major $$$.

You can't go wrong with any Accuphase preamplifier. I'd bet any of them would best the E-470 preamp stage. The AAVA in their integrated are probably just simplified and higher background noise levels (although I doubt you can hear that since they all are incredibly low). I think that is one advancement from the xx10 to xx20 models Accuphase talks about.

Good luck

[spurv]

Wow. Thats great news for me.. C-2120... i will take a look at that .

[One and a Half]

I also have the 2420 since 'one day' I might need the 2nd XLR output for another power amplifier, also for separate Headphone amplifier, there is plenty of power for that purpose.

Very happy with this pre-amp, would have liked another Tape circuit, but I worked around that one. You will like the DC-37, it's difficult to wait the delivery time though.

As for the Macintosh, electrically they work, the pre-amp has enough power to run the McIntosh. There is a difference between the integrated amps and the power amps, in that the power amps have more authority.

For example, E-450 was a great amp (well still is), however the P-4200 creates a more open presentation to the music, and the control over the speaker is total, it really marches to the amplifier.

The A series deliver a different presentation again.

If you like 'bold' from amplifier, then maybe choose the 2420 and the P-4200 or P-6100 combination, save the EUR on the pre-amp to go towards the power amplifier.

[spurv]

Oh.. i didnt see that the 2420 got 2x XLR output. I dont need that. It seems to me that the 2120 is the right model for me.... Since it got all i need of features . A downscaled modell, without the expensice slots and fancy knobs . Hope it sound as good as the 2420.

I havent deside jet, i have to talk to my dealer etc. But this makes it much easier for me to buy a Accuphase Preamplifier this year (the 2120 model). But i dont know what to do with the E-470 jet . I can deliver it back to the dealer.... but... i will try to fint a second place for it .

Alternatively i continue to use it as a integrated amp, and uses its preout when i want to use the MC1.2KW .

[nvp]

spurv, following my reply in the C-2820 vs. C-3800 thread, I agree that it would be better to buy a dedicated Accuphase pre-amp for the MC1.2KM power amp. However, since by now you are well aware of how addictive these Accuphase boxes are, my suggestion would be to consider buying also an Accuphase power amp. Either way, do not rush into this. Before taking a final decision ask your dealer to let you try the Acuphase pre-amp(s) in your system. Similarly, try to directly compare the Accuphase and McIntosh power amps.

Regarding your question about Accuphase preamps, I have first hand experience only with the previous generation(s) of Accuphase integrated amps, pre-amps and power-amps, i.e. E-408, E-550, E-450, C-2410, C-2810, A-45 and A-65. However, given the conservative attitude of Accuphase, I am rather sure that my “findings” are applicable also when considering the current models.

One the one hand, I did not find a very significant difference between the top Accuphase integrated (i.e. E-550 and E-450) and the mid-level separates (e.g. C-2410 pre and A-45 amps). The separates provide a (slightly) blacker background, (slightly) better soundstage and stereo images, and depending on the speakers have more drive/authority. However, it is arguable whether the price difference between separates and integrated (which is a factor of two) is justifiable.

On the other hand, I have found the difference between the C-2410 and C-2810 pre amps to be very significant. As I have reported many times before, when connected between the DP-600 player and the A-65 power amp the C-2410 pre was unnecessary, i.e. the music sounded just as good when connecting the DP-600 player directly to the A-65 amp (the DP-600 has a volume control). Inserting the C-2810 between the Dp-600 and A-65, however, made a huge difference. That is, the combo DP-600 --> C-2810 --> A-65 sounded significantly better than the DP-600 --> A-65 combo (or the DP-600 --> C-2410 --> A-65).

Consequently, my recommendation is to either buy the C-2120 pre or the C-2820 pre (if you are interested in buying new units). However, if you do not mind buying a 2nd hand pre-amp I would strongly recommend to buy the C-2810 model which will moped the floor with the C-2120 pre at roughly the same money.

Good luck and keep us posted!

p.s. One negative comment about all Accuphase pre-amps is the fact that they have very small numeric indicators for the volume. In this regard the newer C-2120 and C-2420 units are a bit better than the top-tier units, e.g. C-2810, C-2820 and C-3800, which all have small fonts and LEDs that are not very intense.

[Dave_72]

Originally Posted by nvp

spurv, following my reply in the C-2820 vs. C-3800 thread, I agree that it would be better to buy a dedicated Accuphase pre-amp for the MC1.2KM power amp. However, since by now you are well aware of how addictive these Accuphase boxes are, my suggestion would be to consider buying also an Accuphase power amp. Either way, do not rush into this. Before taking a final decision ask your dealer to let you try the Acuphase pre-amp(s) in your system. Similarly, try to directly compare the Accuphase and McIntosh power amps.

Regarding your question about Accuphase preamps, I have first hand experience only with the previous generation(s) of Accuphase integrated amps, pre-amps and power-amps, i.e. E-408, E-550, E-450, C-2410, C-2810, A-45 and A-65. However, given the conservative attitude of Accuphase, I am rather sure that my “findings” are applicable also when considering the current models.

One the one hand, I did not find a very significant difference between the top Accuphase integrated (i.e. E-550 and E-450) and the mid-level separates (e.g. C-2410 pre and A-45 amps). The separates provide a (slightly) blacker background, (slightly) better soundstage and stereo images, and depending on the speakers have more drive/authority. However, it is arguable whether the price difference between separates and integrated (which is a factor of two) is justifiable.

On the other hand, I have found the difference between the C-2410 and C-2810 pre amps to be very significant. As I have reported many times before, when connected between the DP-600 player and the A-65 power amp the C-2410 pre was unnecessary, i.e. the music sounded just as good when connecting the DP-600 player directly to the A-65 amp (the DP-600 has a volume control). Inserting the C-2810 between the Dp-600 and A-65, however, made a huge difference. That is, the combo DP-600 --> C-2810 --> A-65 sounded significantly better than the DP-600 --> A-65 combo (or the DP-600 --> C-2410 --> A-65).

Consequently, my recommendation is to either buy the C-2120 pre or the C-2820 pre (if you are interested in buying new units). However, if you do not mind buying a 2nd hand pre-amp I would strongly recommend to buy the C-2810 model which will moped the floor with the C-2120 pre at roughly the same money.

Good luck and keep us posted!

p.s. One negative comment about all Accuphase pre-amps is the fact that they have very small numeric indicators for the volume. In this regard the newer C-2120 and C-2420 units are a bit better than the top-tier units, e.g. C-2810, C-2820 and C-3800, which all have small fonts and LEDs that are not very intense.

Hey nvp, why are you recommending the C-2120 over the C-2420? Thanks.

[nvp]

Hi Dave, here it goes again:

1) I have found that when connected between the DP-600 player and the A-65 power amp, the C-2410 pre is unnecessary. (In the DG-58 thread Mattia has reported similar findings for C-2420.)
2) I did not find a huge difference between the top of the line integrated amps and the mid-level separates, e.g. E-450 or E-550 vs. C-2410 & A-45.

Therefore, since the C-2120 is situated between the integrated amps and the C-2420 I feel it is a better buy. The C-2420 is a C-2120 that is slightly better executed and whose sides have been painted to look like wood (but they are not made from wood). A quick look at the Accuphase brochures shows that the circuit boards in the C-2420 are made from a different material, but that is about it. By contrast, the top Accuphase units have circuit boards with the following two distinct features:

1) Separate circuit boards for the left and right channels.
2) Circuit boards made of teflon, i.e. fluorocarbon substrate.

These seem to be some of the main characteristics that set apart the top units from the entry-level and mid-level units.

In conclusions the C-2420 is closer to the entry level units than it is to the top-tier units. This is clear also if one looks at the price of the various Accuphase pre-amps: C-2120 €7300 vs. C-2420 €11900 vs. C-2820 €22350 (current prices in NL). I hope this clarifies the situation Dave.

[One and a Half]

The output on the DP-720 for example is resolvable (if that's a word?) to 1db increments of volume. The volume control is a digital level only, just to set and forget the level. The 720 can surely drive a power amp directly since the output impedance and level is fine, but the 'coarse' level control...well, I wouldn't use it, unless the pre-amp was broken and I really wanted to play something.

All the Accuphase preamps have AAVA which for one is a lot quieter than the level controller in a CD player. Matching the outputs from a CD player as close a possible to the power amp's input sensitivity makes the whole gain thing issue under good control.

[Mattia]

nvp

A quick look at the Accuphase brochures shows that the circuit boards in the C-2420 are made from a different material, but that is about it

Looking at those pictures I also found that 2420 has much bigger sized filter capacitors than 2120 (similar in physical size to 2820 ones, but I don't see the values nor the "lineage") and the volume knob assembly is exactly the same as the 2820 one. It also sports the internal aluminium grilles on top of the AAVA circuits.

If those changes have a big impact on sound I really don't know: my C-2420 "big volume control" is fine as it is. I don't really "love" it like others components, but it does really well what I bought it for: precisely and easily control the volume and be quiet, not protagonist

Anyway one can easily see that in Accuphase pre lineup it is the 3800 that really stands up as radically different. For this fact alone, I would be more inclined to say that the 3800 is a better buy regardless of price or performance: it is unique and this factor for me is important. I generally don't like too much and avoid product lines with a somewhat similar general base / concept and incrementally better components or slight modifications, to precisely meet (or justify) a certain price point. The 3850 is surely tempting from this point of view...but, see last paragraph...

I must add that one thing about the 2420 that I like (along with his "neutrality" in my system) is that it runs very cold. Even after many hours of use, touching the upper case gives only an almost impossible to perceive warm feeling. My audio room has no windows (I closed with concrete the two I had to have better isolation from exterior and more even internal sound propagation) and the cooling and air circulation is provided by a silenced fan, so for me the heat dissipation of electronics is an important parameter, and I think it was you nvp that said that the 3800 is quite warm after a while. Now I am curious about 3850...