Wilson versus Vivid Audio and Magico

[kzhtoo]

Originally Posted by metaphacts

For what Wilson requires of its cabinets, in both measured and in sonic performance, Wilson's specific application materials properly applied work more effectively than those materials/methodologies used by others. Just how tightly does Wilson measure to determine this? Here's a link to a 10 year old video describing the process. Wilson Audio Laser Vibrometer Technology: Nanometers. So for Wilson to say that our materials/methodologies are technically superior for Wilson's cabinet designs is easy. They are.

Astonishing! I guess I have no choice but to believe you.

[jpgr4blu]

Hi Metafacts:
You will not satisfy JoeN or kzhtoo until you reveal the proprietary composition of all formulations utilized in the cabinetry of Wilson speakers and provide him with a video of the manufacture process. I know from readily available data that Wilson uses a phelonic resin-some with wood fibres, some with cellulose and I'm sure, some with other materials.

But Joe won't even agree that the materials developed over many years by Wilson are optimized for Wilson speakers. He wants to know the details of how the Wilson technicians know this to be so.

Of course, he can go to the Wilson factory for a tour if he is that curious, but I'm sure he is not that curious.

These posts reminds me of the Wilson-Magico threads on Audiogon where Magico owners invade Wilson threads try to "prove" that Magico speakers are superior because of alleged heroic efforts in driver and cabinet technology. I have heard all Magico speakers available to the public for the last 10 years or so. I can understand why some prefer the sound of those speakers to Wilson or any others. But I have no interest in going into a Magico thread and suggesting that all Magico's (including the M3s that I auditioned before choosing Wilson Alexia2s) and their alleged heroic cutting edge technology (makes for great advertising copy) result in a speaker that sounds less like real music to me than Wilson, Rockport, Harbeth, YG, Triangle, Piega, Vandersteen and countless others that I prefer. I would not want to waste the time of Magico fans.

Of course Wilson has had excellent advertising campaigns as has Magico--and some very reputable reviewers love Magico (Harley and Valin). So the story, as always, comes down to personal taste. And you can't argue about that.

[Formerly YB-2]

Originally Posted by audioguy3107

And just for the record, a speaker does not have to have movable modules in order to be time and phase coherent.....that is nonsense.
- Buck

Actually, it is and it isn't. With fixed driver positions a speaker will be time & phase coherent at a fixed listening position....... say 10'. If one moves to 8' or 12' the time & phase coherence will be less, though this can be adjusted somewhat by tipping the speaker forward or back with spikes, etc. With movable modules the time & phase coherence can be adjusted and thus optimized for various listening positions.

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by JoeN

Thanks for the additional effort. Though it will take a while I’ll check out ALL the videos. I mean it, as I desire to have the very best system possible. However, I’m most interested in the manufacturing process and what all the alphabet letters that Wilson emphasizes mean. Phrases like “what we feel is necessary in a cabinet” and “for Wilson's application” and “Asking different design questions than we do might lead to the use of different combinations and/or materials” are all rather subjective ideals.

I’m a firm believer that at this level of performance (at any level) that it depends greatly upon numerous things such as:

1. room dynamics
2. matching components
3. individual preferences

so, many speakers fit into this paradigm.

There are no completely objective designs. Every design is informed by the designer/design team's education/experiences/ and biases.

imo,

1. Room dynamic capability can certainly be a limitation. Often times however, incorrect speaker set up exacerbates the situation
2. Matching components is actually pretty easy in this day and age, depending on listening prejudices.
3. Only the individual has to live with the choice. So he/she should always own it, not depend on reviews and internet forums to form final choices.

For any sensible company in this industry, it should always be better to have a smaller market share in a much larger overall market than vice versa. So the more speakers that help to accomplish this for all of us, the better.

As always, ymmv.

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by jpgr4blu

.. So the story, as always, comes down to personal taste. And you can't argue about that.

Perfect summation.

[Charles]

I think what you have with Magico in their more expensive models is an extremely well built one piece cabinet housing extremely high quality drivers with great attention paid to every aspect of the design like for examples the crossover and speaker base.

However, Magico's are inherently limited by the fact that the cabinet is one piece. A one piece cabinet has a furniture resonance, no matter how well built. Furniture resonance is very significant. What is this resonance in the M6 or Mk II? Because Alexx is modular there is no furniture resonance. Read the Stereophile review. Manufacturers like McIntosh, Genesis, Infinity, and SF all recognize this fact and design their systems so that the crossover frequencies eliminate this issue.

Also, since the drivers are all in one cabinet there can be no time alignment. The sound of the individual drivers will reach the ears at different times. Does time alignment make a difference? I think this is a proven fact. I asked a simple question: What are the rules for positioning a Magico? What is the rule for how much toe-in? What is the rule for optimum distance from the speaker? For ear height? Does any of this matter? I wasn't provided an answer because the answer is that it is what sounds best to you.

With Wilson there is an answer. Most rooms have a sweet spot. I know where mine is. I'm going to place my XVX in about the same position as my Alexx and go through the comprehensive Wilson adjustment procedure: point the tweeters at your ears, not between your eyes or at your shoulders but exactly at your ears. Then adjust all modules for distance between ears and tweeters and ear height. Then listen. Then adjust. Then listen, until the sound is totally dialed in and you have the Wilson sound. I like the Wilson sound a lot and it is reproducible because Wilson has a method, a set of rules. Magico doesn't. If Magico does, state them.

There is nothing special about carbon fiber and aluminum. Both have been around for a long time. I believe Wilson and what they say about their materials. They are not fake as some have implied. I find it interesting that the XVX is even using aluminum in the gantry.

Lastly, the majority of manufacturers use ported systems for important reasons. Every sealed system has a resonance frequency. It is virtually impossible for the "box" to have a resonance frequency lower than 30Hz. That's why sealed subs require massive amounts of power because of the needed equalization to reproduce a loud 20 Hz tone.

It is much more natural and easy to achieve really low bass with a ported system. The weakness of a ported speaker has always been the quality of the bass. Not so anymore. The bass with my Alexx was as quick and tight as anyone could want with superb transient response and pitch definition.

I would ask Magico owners to state the rules for setting up and optimizing Magico's. I would ask them which they would choose, the Mk II or the M6 if money were no object. It's telling that Magico has no obvious Flagsip. Also, Magico seems to abandon all it's speaker design and go with a massive horn loaded speaker for it's true Flagship in the Ultimate, a speaker no one ever mentions. Wilson doesn't do this. The design principles found in the WAMM can be found in the Sabrina.

At this point in the game to my mind Wilson has surpassed Magico in every aspect of speaker design with possible exception of driver technology.

[kzhtoo]

Originally Posted by Charles

I think what you have with Magico in their more expensive models is an extremely well built one piece cabinet housing extremely high quality drivers with great attention paid to every aspect of the design like for examples the crossover and speaker base.

However, Magico's are inherently limited by the fact that the cabinet is one piece. A one piece cabinet has a furniture resonance, no matter how well built. Furniture resonance is very significant. What is this resonance in the M6 or Mk II? Because Alexx is modular there is no furniture resonance. Read the Stereophile review. Manufacturers like McIntosh, Genesis, Infinity, and SF all recognize this fact and design their systems so that the crossover frequencies eliminate this issue.

Also, since the drivers are all in one cabinet there can be no time alignment. The sound of the individual drivers will reach the ears at different times. Does time alignment make a difference? I think this is a proven fact. I asked a simple question: What are the rules for positioning a Magico? What is the rule for how much toe-in? What is the rule for optimum distance from the speaker? For ear height? Does any of this matter? I wasn't provided an answer because the answer is that it is what sounds best to you.

With Wilson there is an answer. Most rooms have a sweet spot. I know where mine is. I'm going to place my XVX in about the same position as my Alexx and go through the comprehensive Wilson adjustment procedure: point the tweeters at your ears, not between your eyes or at your shoulders but exactly at your ears. Then adjust all modules for distance between ears and tweeters and ear height. Then listen. Then adjust. Then listen, until the sound is totally dialed in and you have the Wilson sound. I like the Wilson sound a lot and it is reproducible because Wilson has a method, a set of rules. Magico doesn't. If Magico does, state them.

There is nothing special about carbon fiber and aluminum. Both have been around for a long time. I believe Wilson and what they say about their materials. They are not fake as some have implied. I find it interesting that the XVX is even using aluminum in the gantry.

Lastly, the majority of manufacturers use ported systems for important reasons. Every sealed system has a resonance frequency. It is virtually impossible for the "box" to have a resonance frequency lower than 30Hz. That's why sealed subs require massive amounts of power because of the needed equalization to reproduce a loud 20 Hz tone.

It is much more natural and easy to achieve really low bass with a ported system. The weakness of a ported speaker has always been the quality of the bass. Not so anymore. The bass with my Alexx was as quick and tight as anyone could want with superb transient response and pitch definition.

I would ask Magico owners to state the rules for setting up and optimizing Magico's. I would ask them which they would choose, the Mk II or the M6 if money were no object. It's telling that Magico has no obvious Flagsip. Also, Magico seems to abandon all it's speaker design and go with a massive horn loaded speaker for it's true Flagship in the Ultimate, a speaker no one ever mentions. Wilson doesn't do this. The design principles found in the WAMM can be found in the Sabrina.

At this point in the game to my mind Wilson has surpassed Magico in every aspect of speaker design with possible exception of driver technology.

Bet you’ve got all this without a single listening to any Magico speakers with familiar gears and in a familiar setting.

[JoeN]

Originally Posted by jpgr4blu

Hi Metafacts:
You will not satisfy JoeN until you reveal the proprietary composition of all formulations utilized in the cabinetry of Wilson speakers and provide him with a video of the manufacture process. I know from available data that Wilson uses a phelonic resin-some with wood fibres, some with cellulose and I'm sure, some with other materials.

Joe can't even agree that the materials developed over many years by Wilson are optimized for Wilson speakers. He wants to know the details of how the Wilson technicians know this to be so.
Of course, he can go to the Wilson factory for a tour if he is that curious, but I'm sure he is not that curious.

Respectfully, jpgr4blu I’m handicapped. Though I’m out of my wheelchair now, unless it’s an emergency, I don’t travel more than three to four hours (an improvement over the previous two hours) from home by car and I can’t fly. If the need ever arose, I can’t even be life-flighted. Since I understand that Wilson Audio is in Provo, Utah and I’m in FL I believe that is more than four hours driving distance away. So, I can’t for medical reasons make the Wilson journey.

But why should I or any other person have to travel all the way to Utah for answers? Why can’t you as a Wilson supporter supply this info? Wilson dealers allegedly go thru a module on such. Can you state what they have told you about the Wilson Alphabet involved in their speakers?

So, your sarcasm aside, I need the facts online. Can you provide them or not? Please post them if you can as I would really like to read them. I asked what the alphabet letters Wilson emphasizes stand for? Can you supply this information or not? Can you provide videos of the production of Wilson Audio speakers as some other speaker manufacturers do?

Respectfully, I don’t understand why you and others are avoiding the answers?

PS: Please re-read my posts. You will see that I’m not anti-Wilson Audio. I actually like them. I like the sound. So, please if you know the answers post them ...

[jpgr4blu]

JoeN:
I am sorry to hear about your mobility issues which prevent you from doing many more important things than going on a speaker manufacturer's factory tour.

I personally do not recall the ingredients in the formulations for each of the materials used by Wilson--but the ingredients for the various alphabetized materials have been published numerous times in magazine reviews of Wilson speakers such as those in Stereophile, Absolute Sound, HiFi+, HiFi News and Record Review and online reviews in The Audiobeat.
I will note that the percentage of phelonic resin and other ingredients in each material is, in all likelihood, proprietary.

Sorry if I was incorrect in detecting a touch of snarky in your exchange with Metaphacts where you appeared to dispute that the cabinet formulations used for Wilson speakers are optimized for that purpose.

[Charles]

Originally Posted by kzhtoo

Bet you’ve got all this without a single listening to any Magico speakers with familiar gears and in a familiar setting.

The problem I have with your reply is I don't hear you giving a concise respectful thoughtful rebuttal. Rather a one liner and implication by some comments in this thread that Wilson is disreputable as far as materials are concerned, which I can testify to that they are not (disreputable). With all my purchases they have been the absolute best and very forthcoming. Not standoffish, not smug but humble if anything. My respectful analysis of Magico is that they are severely limited by their cabinet design and the fact that it is a sealed system.

My XVX will be installed tomorrow. This is my third Wilson: Maxx3, Alexx, and now XVX. Let's hope the installation goes well.