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Old 05-08-2019, 12:58 PM
mike175gr mike175gr is offline
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Default Need a CR-1?

I am looking at potentially purchasing a single Fathom f112v2 and am curious about integrating it into my system. I have an extra set of outputs out of any Cary SLP-05 and was going to simply connect it that way, but is a CR-1 necessary?
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Old 05-09-2019, 01:14 PM
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Default Need a CR-1?

Simple answer is “No”. A crossover is not needed and many here do not use them in top, top line systems. Generally, when they do not, they are setting their crossovers below 50Hz even below 40Hz such that the sub only enters the picture at the lowest frequencies. They are also lucky to not have to deal with bass issues in their well sorted out rooms.

In cases such as mine where my main speakers develop a big ‘suck-out’ around 90Hz. No amount of available movement of their positions or of my listening position was able to eliminate it.

My solution was to buy a CR-1 and cross my JL Audio Fathom F113v2 at 95 Hz for high and low pass. Locate the Fathom using REW’s room simulator, fine tune its location with my ears and then adjust the phase of my Fathom, Run DARO and smile like crazy.

I achieved flat bass from 18 Hz to 300Hz, removed the low end load on my Amplifiers and created the best staging and frequency integration I have ever had.
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Main room - Sonus Faber Stradivari, JL Audio F113v2 & CR-1 Crossover, McIntosh MC2301 Amplifiers with Stillpoint Ultra SS feet, McIntosh C1100 on Stillpoint Minis, Esoteric K-03X on Stillpoint Minis, Cybershaft Ultimate 2 OP17 on Stillpoint Minis, SilenZio v.2 Audio by -E- Media Server (running ROON), GigaFoil v4, Keces P3 with Ghent PC, 9 M Supra Cat 8+ and 0.65 M Revelation audio ethernet cables.

Other - 5 Stillpoint Apertures, GIK Bass Traps, Vicoustics Waveguide panels, Shunyata Alpha Clock 75 1.5 meter BNC, Shunyata Alpha 1.5 meter USB, WW Gold Eclipse 7 SCs, WW Silver Electra 7 PCs, WW Silver Eclipse ICs; 3 X 20 Amp Power lines, PS Audio P10 & Dectet, 3 Sound Anchor stands, Powerports and numerous Noise Harvesters. Furutech Flex 50, Cable risers, HRS dampeners

TV Room Audio - Panasonic TC-P60GT50, McIntosh MX-121, MC7106, Revel F52 & C32, B&W LM1, Sonos Connect\W4S Remedy\iFI 9V Power, WW & Kimber cables, PS Audio Dectet

Last edited by crwilli; 05-09-2019 at 05:14 PM.
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Old 05-09-2019, 03:55 PM
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Mike - If you are just trying to add a bit of low end extension, then you can run your mains full bandwidth and just add in the sub to take care of the very lowest ranges. T
I would try it first without a crossover and if you can dial it in you're good. If you feel the need to remove the bass from your mains you can add a crossover at a later date.
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  #4  
Old 05-09-2019, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crwilli View Post
Simple answer is “No”. A crossover is not needed and many here do not use them in top, top line systems. Generally, when they do not, they are setting their crossovers below 50Hz even below 40Hz such that the sub only enters the picture at the lowest frequencies. They are also lucky to not have to deal with bass issues in their well sorted out rooms.

In cases such as mine where my main speakers develop a big ‘suck-out’ around 90Hz. No amount of available movement of their positions or of my listening position was able to eliminate it.

My solution was to buy a CR-1 and cross my JL Audio Fathom F113v2 at 95 Hz for high and low pass. Locate the Fathom using REW’s room simulator, fine tune its location with my ears and then adjust the phase of my Fathom, Run DARO and smile like crazy.

I achieved flat bass from 18 Hz to 300Hz, removed the low end load on my Amplifiers and created the best staging and frequency integration I have ever had.
True
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Old 05-10-2019, 11:45 AM
mike175gr mike175gr is offline
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Thank you all very much for your input. I really appreciate it. I am now trying to decide between the f112v2 or the f113v2. I do want it to blend seamlessly once I am finished. I used to have a REL B1 sub with my Vienna Acoustic Mahler speakers and enjoyed it very much. My newer system in in a larger room that is on the second level and opens up via a balcony to a larger great room with 26' ceiling. I will be mostly listening to music, but also movies as well.

I had read that the f112v2 is a better choice for music as opposed to the f113v2. Is that accurate?
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Old 05-10-2019, 01:48 PM
IM3CPO IM3CPO is offline
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I personally would not agree with the f112 being the better choice for music vs the f113. The size sub should be mostly dictated by the size of the room, so I would only employ the 12" if the room was not big enough to support the 13.5". In your application, I am not sure the f112 would give you the results you are looking for.
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Old 05-10-2019, 02:08 PM
mike175gr mike175gr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IM3CPO View Post
I personally would not agree with the f112 being the better choice for music vs the f113. The size sub should be mostly dictated by the size of the room, so I would only employ the 12" if the room was not big enough to support the 13.5". In your application, I am not sure the f112 would give you the results you are looking for.
Thank you, that is the input I am looking for. I am then struggling between the B&W DB1D (two 12" drivers) 2,000 watts vs the JL Audio F113v2 (one 13.5" driver) 3,000 watts.

I want to obviously have it blend as seamlessly as possible with my B&W 802D3 mains. There are pros and cons with each units, and I am having a tough time deciding.
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Old 05-10-2019, 04:16 PM
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JL Audio are subwoofer experts. B&W are not. Lots of very satisfied customers for each.

The JL specifies displacement and B&W does not. Displacement is the key spec for how low and loud the sub will go.
__________________
Main System:
Amati Futura Mains
Amati Homage VOX Center,
Proac Response 1sc Rears,
Three MC2301's for L,C,R
MC 602 for the rears
C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 80
Nottingham Dais with Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation
SurfacePro 3, JRiver, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC

MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material.

Lake House:
Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 77, Rega P3

OnDeck:
McIntosh MAC 4300v
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Old 05-10-2019, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IM3CPO View Post
I personally would not agree with the f112 being the better choice for music vs the f113. The size sub should be mostly dictated by the size of the room, so I would only employ the 12" if the room was not big enough to support the 13.5". In your application, I am not sure the f112 would give you the results you are looking for.


Yes! What he said.
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Main room - Sonus Faber Stradivari, JL Audio F113v2 & CR-1 Crossover, McIntosh MC2301 Amplifiers with Stillpoint Ultra SS feet, McIntosh C1100 on Stillpoint Minis, Esoteric K-03X on Stillpoint Minis, Cybershaft Ultimate 2 OP17 on Stillpoint Minis, SilenZio v.2 Audio by -E- Media Server (running ROON), GigaFoil v4, Keces P3 with Ghent PC, 9 M Supra Cat 8+ and 0.65 M Revelation audio ethernet cables.

Other - 5 Stillpoint Apertures, GIK Bass Traps, Vicoustics Waveguide panels, Shunyata Alpha Clock 75 1.5 meter BNC, Shunyata Alpha 1.5 meter USB, WW Gold Eclipse 7 SCs, WW Silver Electra 7 PCs, WW Silver Eclipse ICs; 3 X 20 Amp Power lines, PS Audio P10 & Dectet, 3 Sound Anchor stands, Powerports and numerous Noise Harvesters. Furutech Flex 50, Cable risers, HRS dampeners

TV Room Audio - Panasonic TC-P60GT50, McIntosh MX-121, MC7106, Revel F52 & C32, B&W LM1, Sonos Connect\W4S Remedy\iFI 9V Power, WW & Kimber cables, PS Audio Dectet
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  #10  
Old 05-20-2019, 12:27 PM
Wayne Wayne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike175gr View Post
I am looking at potentially purchasing a single Fathom f112v2 and am curious about integrating it into my system. I have an extra set of outputs out of any Cary SLP-05 and was going to simply connect it that way, but is a CR-1 necessary?
I strongly disagree with those recommending to run your main speakers full range without a crossover. The issue is that its very difficult if not impossible to get the phase to match at every frequency where the main speakers and and sub overlap without a crossover. No you don't need a CR-1 but you do need a crossover if you hope to get a flattish overall frequency response.

I used an Ashley crossover before upgrading to a Cr-1 and it worked fine.
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