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  #11  
Old 01-14-2017, 01:36 PM
Pampero Pampero is offline
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Pio, I think the biggest issue for the Ultima line is that it's 8 years old. It's not really performance related, but the audiophile press just doesn't seem to respect anything that isn't new, new, new.

Speaker and amplifier technology is wheel and axle stuff. None of the fundamental operating principles have changed for decades. Materials are improved (often only incrementally) and measurement and design techniques get enhanced. But even in those areas, things like FFT analyzers and finite area analysis have been around for decades as has CNC machinery.

Nothing fundamental has changed, but we still see outrageously priced products with modest incremental gains being sold as the latest must haves, and the press doesn't acknowledge or write about anything that's two years old. The industry has to make new stuff if it wants to sell product on but the reality is that in most cases the more things change, the more they remain the same.

New products resulting from these creeping developments certainly can represent improvements but the cost vs. benefits are frequently diminished beyond all sensibility and the technologies would be recognizable to Western Electric engineers.

Revel (Voecks) has said they will not replace the Salon2 until they can introduce a product that is both substantially better and is not overshadowed by existing competition. Their blind testing methods at Harman's labs are, I believe, the best way to go about it.

I suspect that new products they are now introducing or teasing with (like Lexicon's omnis) have been in the pipeline long before the Samsung buyout. It will be interesting to see how, if any, the new structure affects the product lineup. Regardless, I plan to keep my Salon2s for an extended and indefinite period of time.

I would expect if a wholly new line is launched that it would include room adaption (correction) capabilities and possibly some form of integrated amplification. That makes sense to me given Harman's commitment to those approaches in the pro world, but as far as the current Salon2 goes, all I'd really want is a bit more sensitivity and the "passive" Salon2s would be almost perfect for me as they stand.

The audio press, well, they need something different to fill the pages, so new stuff is covered asap yet anything a year or two old gets the cold shoulder. I'm not saying new and improved stuff doesn't come to the table, but in the elevated, rarified, esoteric and frequently outlandish world of the high end a lot of it is done with smoke and mirrors and pricing? Hah!

Genuine quantum leaps and technical breakthroughs are rare. I'm confident Revel will be forced to introduce a new apex product in the not too distant future whatever they say because it's the only way to make a splash. If it will be better value than the Ultima series is TBD but if it's a play on the existing theme it will likely be a bit better. If it's really new, it will be more adaptable than previous all passive efforts. The room/system interaction has been the focus of Harman's approach for over a decade and I don't see that changing.

Good, bad or indifferent, the press will rave about the differences as if comparing chalk and cheese.
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Last edited by Pampero; 01-14-2017 at 01:56 PM.
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  #12  
Old 01-15-2017, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pampero View Post
Pio, I think the biggest issue for the Ultima line is that it's 8 years old. It's not really performance related, but the audiophile press just doesn't seem to respect anything that isn't new, new, new.

Speaker and amplifier technology is wheel and axle stuff. None of the fundamental operating principles have changed for decades. Materials are improved (often only incrementally) and measurement and design techniques get enhanced. But even in those areas, things like FFT analyzers and finite area analysis have been around for decades as has CNC machinery.

Nothing fundamental has changed, but we still see outrageously priced products with modest incremental gains being sold as the latest must haves, and the press doesn't acknowledge or write about anything that's two years old. The industry has to make new stuff if it wants to sell product on but the reality is that in most cases the more things change, the more they remain the same.

New products resulting from these creeping developments certainly can represent improvements but the cost vs. benefits are frequently diminished beyond all sensibility and the technologies would be recognizable to Western Electric engineers.

Revel (Voecks) has said they will not replace the Salon2 until they can introduce a product that is both substantially better and is not overshadowed by existing competition. Their blind testing methods at Harman's labs are, I believe, the best way to go about it.

I suspect that new products they are now introducing or teasing with (like Lexicon's omnis) have been in the pipeline long before the Samsung buyout. It will be interesting to see how, if any, the new structure affects the product lineup. Regardless, I plan to keep my Salon2s for an extended and indefinite period of time.

I would expect if a wholly new line is launched that it would include room adaption (correction) capabilities and possibly some form of integrated amplification. That makes sense to me given Harman's commitment to those approaches in the pro world, but as far as the current Salon2 goes, all I'd really want is a bit more sensitivity and the "passive" Salon2s would be almost perfect for me as they stand.

The audio press, well, they need something different to fill the pages, so new stuff is covered asap yet anything a year or two old gets the cold shoulder. I'm not saying new and improved stuff doesn't come to the table, but in the elevated, rarified, esoteric and frequently outlandish world of the high end a lot of it is done with smoke and mirrors and pricing? Hah!

Genuine quantum leaps and technical breakthroughs are rare. I'm confident Revel will be forced to introduce a new apex product in the not too distant future whatever they say because it's the only way to make a splash. If it will be better value than the Ultima series is TBD but if it's a play on the existing theme it will likely be a bit better. If it's really new, it will be more adaptable than previous all passive efforts. The room/system interaction has been the focus of Harman's approach for over a decade and I don't see that changing.

Good, bad or indifferent, the press will rave about the differences as if comparing chalk and cheese.
Well, you nailed it. Correct on all points, especially on speakers and amps being wheel / axle items. Many would disagree, but you and I have seen the biz from a different point where true advancements, not marketing BS, move the needle.

From memory - I watched either a video or read that Dr. Floyd E. Toole said [real] progress will come from powered speakers (where the amps are perfectly matched to the transducers) and room correction. That sounds to me like what they did with the JBL Pro M2, which is arguable the best "performing" speaker made (ruler flat on Harman's spinorama, same frequency response at 90db as at 110db, etc) .

Anyways, I was planning on keeping my F208's for a long, LONG time, but the 208Be has certainly peaked my interest. If (to my ears) it truly sounds a step closer to the Ultima's, I will upgrade. As you know, the 208's (for the price) are hard to beat.
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  #13  
Old 01-15-2017, 12:26 PM
Pampero Pampero is offline
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^^ Yup!
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  #14  
Old 01-16-2017, 04:12 PM
Rex Anderson Rex Anderson is offline
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I screwed up a few months ago when I passed on a pair of Studio2's that were on Audiogon for about the same price as what a new pair of F208be's will cost at a reasonable discount. Still kicking myself.

Pretty sure Studio 2's will outperform the new 208be's. I'm keeping my eye out for a used pair of Studio2's. Who knows how many are out there and how much longer they will be available?
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  #15  
Old 01-17-2017, 02:45 AM
Pampero Pampero is offline
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They're around. So are Salon2s. There area several pairs available now, a couple at bargain prices.
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  #16  
Old 01-17-2017, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
I screwed up a few months ago when I passed on a pair of Studio2's that were on Audiogon for about the same price as what a new pair of F208be's will cost at a reasonable discount. Still kicking myself.

Pretty sure Studio 2's will outperform the new 208be's. I'm keeping my eye out for a used pair of Studio2's. Who knows how many are out there and how much longer they will be available?

http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...9BOVEeff2AX.97

they might be closer than you think... some think "better"

https://www.audioaficionado.org/show...44&postcount=3
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Last edited by Pio; 01-17-2017 at 11:05 AM.
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  #17  
Old 01-17-2017, 12:50 PM
Rex Anderson Rex Anderson is offline
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Yep, I read both of those links a while back. I have to hear the Studio2's before I make any decision on what to do.

Thanks for the info though, I appreciate it!
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  #18  
Old 01-18-2017, 03:31 PM
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Audiophilehi Audiophilehi is offline
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Super excited with the news of beryllium tweeters making their way to the Performa line - I will take a pair of 208's in black please!!! Thinking my current 208's can replace my 802D2s and these babies can be my 2 channel set up!! I read they will be avail late-mid '17.



Looks like I just added one to my short list!
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  #19  
Old 01-22-2017, 03:12 PM
Pampero Pampero is offline
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If they sound anything like the Ultima series, which I expect they will, you'll be dancing. I suspect if I had it to do over, they'd be high on my list. Once that's been proven, adding a JL CR1 and a second sub would not seem so profligate (to my wife, blessed be she, ruler of my universe).
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  #20  
Old 04-21-2017, 03:00 AM
charlswood charlswood is offline
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Revel Performa3 F208BE becomes the F228.
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