Shindo Giscours internal phono stage SMOKES the ARC Ref Phono 2 !

[Jerome W]

Ok, I finally tried the MC section of my Giscours. I was not in a hurry because all the buzz about the " you must use an SUT with a MC cart with Shindo " and the very few carts compatible.
What a shock ! My cart is a modest DL103 modified by ESC, on the Clearaudio Champion level II.
Heard a few recordings with both the ARC and the Shindo and there was no game. After a while, the ARC started to sound almost ugly compared to the Giscours.
Ok, to be nicer, let's say that the REF phono 2 sounds like a budget component compared to the Shindo inboard phono stage. The Shindo wins hands down for superlative dynamics, tremendous rich and detailed and super clean bass, realism, naturalness of the mids and highs with not an once of grain.
The Shindo magic lies in the preamps for sure, but truly in the phono section.
I am speechless.
The ARC blew away the C1000P inboard phono stages and the Shindo blows away the ARC to an extent I would have never thought possible.
The difference is unbelievable. There are really treasures in those black discs...
The ARC still sounds very good but I can ( and I do actually ) analyze the music. But the Shindo gives a complete immersion in the performance and goose bumps all the way and the level of musicality achieved cannot be compared with the ARC.
I don't know if all Shindo phono stages are at this level, but the Giscours one is truly a work of art.
So who in Europe / Australia needs a 230 V phono stage ? I'm selling my REF 2....

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[chessman]

Jerome, you must be one happy man. Nothing like getting a big improvement when you least expect it. Congrats!

[Jerome W]

Originally Posted by chessman

Jerome, you must be one happy man. Nothing like getting a big improvement when you least expect it. Congrats!

Well yes and no Randy.
I should have bought the Giscours last year before the REF Phono 2. I would have saved a fair amount of money.
But yes, I'm super happy to see that spinning vinyls can go so high in results.
There was I time when I said that to spend a fair amount of money in audio for me, it could be nothing else than McIntosh.
Now Shindo took this place in my heart and makes me sorry for all the non Shindo gear I bought over the years !

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[chessman]

Originally Posted by Jérôme W

Well yes and no Randy.
I should have bought the Giscours last year before the REF Phono 2. I would have saved a fair amount of money.
But yes, I'm super happy to see that spinning vinyls can go so high in results.
There was I time when I said that to spend a fair amount of money in audio for me, it could be nothing else than McIntosh.
Now Shindo took this place in my heart and makes me sorry for all the non Shindo gear I bought over the years !

Sent from my iPhone using A.Aficionado

It's a dance, not a race. Do not wish any of it away.

[BlueChiaro]

Jerome, it's obvious that you're not in sales; otherwise, you'd have waited until AFTER your REF Phono 2 sold to post this! So, despite the fact that you just dissed my phono stage, I still really like you and am glad you're blissful.

[Jerome W]

Originally Posted by BlueChiaro

Jerome, it's obvious that you're not in sales; otherwise, you'd have waited until AFTER your REF Phono 2 sold to post this! So, despite the fact that you just dissed my phono stage, I still really like you and am glad you're blissful.

Robert , I thought about you and about Howie of course when I wrote all this. thinking that I could be too rude on the ARC.....
But I am lucky enough for owning great units. And not communicating my findings is simply unfair.
In France, no dealer had the REF 2 on display when I ordered it. And Shindo is not sold here.
I thought that some people, even not interested in LP playback could find my history interesting.

You know well how I love my REF 2. And I know how you and Howie love yours. But like me you are not " newbies" in audio and of course you both know guys that there are better, much better phono stages on the market.
There is surely also a much better phono stage than the Giscours of course.
Such is life.
And you're right, I 'm not into sales : D !
Enjoy your REF 2 buddy ! It is, as you know, a wonderful phono stage.
Shindo is from an other planet ! So as long as you don't get a Giscours next to your Ref 2, you will be safe !

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[Alberto]

Jerome, I am not surprised because it has been obvious for a while that you have a distinct preference for delicious sound - which is the one audio adjective that best describes the Shindo's sound across the line.

I don't think anyone should take any offense at your comments. You call it as you see it.

The Ref2 is called Ref (reference) for good reasons. There are people who want their gear to be as neutral as possible. My neighbor (with an all ARC system) is such a person. I find his system "too dry". He finds mine too "sweet". We would not trade systems even for a day (which would be easy to do because we live next door and it's something we discussed) because the our difference in taste are so clear.

I also like the idea of using the built-in phono stage, it's so much simpler and it requires fewer connectors and opportunities for picking up noise, etc.

Alberto

[Jerome W]

Originally Posted by Alberto

Jerome, I am not surprised because it has been obvious for a while that you have a distinct preference for delicious sound - which is the one audio adjective that best describes the Shindo's sound across the line.

I don't think anyone should take any offense at your comments. You call it as you see it.

The Ref2 is called Ref (reference) for good reasons. There are people who want their gear to be as neutral as possible. My neighbor (with an all ARC system) is such a person. I find his system "too dry". He finds mine too "sweet". We would not trade systems even for a day (which would be easy to do because we live next door and it's something we discussed) because the our difference in taste are so clear.

I also like the idea of using the built-in phono stage, it's so much simpler and it requires fewer connectors and opportunities for picking up noise, etc.

Alberto

Alberto,

I have to respectfully disagree here.
We have had a few pieces of gear in common together. I believe that we have the same tastes.
I do not put the same meaning as you do behind the word "delicious".
Your system is not " warm" in the meaning of " colored". It is warm and delicious because this is just how real music is.
I have now a pretty good knowledge of Shindo electronics, compared to Mc, Manley, ARC and so on to testify that Shindo is indeed VERY NEUTRAL.
Your Tannoy speakers are also extremely neutral.
So I wonder how come your system could be less " neutral " than an ARC REFERENCE system.
But Shindo sounds more like real music.
The Giscours phonostage gives much more details and has a much higher transparency than the REF 2. Quite the opposite indeed. The Shindo sound is more neutral than the ARC one. It is closer to the performance.
Does it sound delicious ? You bet !
Music is delicious !

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[Alberto]

Originally Posted by Jérôme W

Alberto,

I have to respectfully disagree here.
We have had a few pieces of gear in common together. I believe that we have the same tastes.
I do not put the same meaning as you do behind the word "delicious".
Your system is not " warm" in the meaning of " colored". It is warm and delicious because this is just how real music is.
I have now a pretty good knowledge of Shindo electronics, compared to Mc, Manley, ARC and so on to testify that Shindo is indeed VERY NEUTRAL.
Your Tannoy speakers are also extremely neutral.
So I wonder how come your system could be less " neutral " than an ARC REFERENCE system.
But Shindo sounds more like real music.
The Giscours phonostage gives much more details and has a much higher transparency than the REF 2. Quite the opposite indeed. The Shindo sound is more neutral than the ARC one. It is closer to the performance.
Does it sound delicious ? You bet !
Music is delicious !

Sent from my iPhone using A.Aficionado

I can't disagree with what you say Jerome (about it sounding more like music.) I was a bit sloppy in my explanation or, rather, I oversimplified what I really believe (and hear.)

Here's my refinement. If it makes little sense it's because it's very hard to put into words what we each - subjectively - hear.

The Shindo sounds more like music but some systems sound more like the recording of that music.

In other words. The recording process seems to steal something from the performance. The recordings reflect that.

Some systems that are more accurate (let's say "reference") are accurate to the recording - they play back what's on the recording with great neutrality.
However, since the recording process took something I can't quite define away from the live performance, they can sound more sterile.

Other systems somehow - don't ask me how - seem to add that missing component to the music that was subtracted during the recording process. In that sense, they are more accurate to the music than to the recording.

I've "proven" this to myself, by choosing - time and again - single ended amplifiers with 10 to 100X more distortion than some reference amplifiers with demonstrably lower (near zero) distortion.

I am not trying to convince anyone since all of this is very subjective, but there are clearly two types of neutrality: neutral with respect to the actual music and neutral with respect to the recording of that music.

I know this sounds like hand-waving hocus-pocus, it's not a fully formed argument or position, nor a final one* (I have other theories) just my experience and my tentative speculative explanation for that experience.

Alberto

* Another possible explanation is that some components have a signal path that is soooooo complicated that they introduce some kind of "distortions" in the time/phase/xyz/abc/who-knows domain that we can't measure with instruments yet, but that our ears and brains can detect. While they measure perfectly on some metrics they do unmeasurable, literally, damage to other attributes of the music.

The signal path of my Shindos is painfully simple. I believe the sound goes through 1/10th the number of components and connections (soldering) than some of my previous ones.

[PHC1]

Jerome, you must try the SUT. I went through the same experience as you including the REF2 Phono and Shindo and adding a SUT to Shindo.... I also have that Denon cart that I used.