#101
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HI Brian, Last edited by jdandy; 01-08-2016 at 02:05 PM. Reason: active link to non-sponsor seller against forum rules. |
#102
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EMT puts out 1mV @ 5 cm/s - so at a 1:40 ratio it would be producing 40mV!
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#103
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a cotter is an amazing match with koetsu carts . they all have 5 ohm impedance - it is a fantastic match!!!!!
greetings ekki |
#104
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In your experience, does any other SUT sound better with a Koetsu?
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#105
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Dear bguptonm,
talking about Koetsu means a lot more than just the SUT. First of all - the absolute basic ist the tonearm. Koetsu carts have a compliance of 5cu measured at 100hz. In comparison a Lyra has 12cu, a SPU Classic has 6cu a Royal N has 8, an Ikeda 9TT has 7cu. As you might see, we need a heavy tonearm. Most of the cases we will see a Koetsu at the end of a SME V oder IV, Triplanar oder Graham - all these arms are too lightweight. Also the idea to use the most common SME 3012 is not a good ides - the only heavy SME 3012 was the first series with the steel tube - all later SME 3012 are also too lightweight. You need an arm with minimum 19g eff mass - better more, from 19g the game starts... Imagine a Fidelity Reserach FR66S has an eff mass of 32-26g (depend on the headshell)!!!! Maybe you read in the different forums a lot about the Koetsu sound. In most of the cases you weill read something like that. Indifferent bass, whooly, over emphasized and not very deep. Great mids - to die for, great vocal performanc and also strings are rendered very nice. Rolled off top a little bit muted on top. All these descriptions are true in a SME V, Triplanar (lesser margin here) Graham (also lesser margin) and so on. If you pair a Koetsu with a proper arm - you will get something totally different. Match it with a 12" Schröder with a Snakewood or Ebony armetube andyou have a totally different story . If the matching to the arm is nearly perfect - you get the to die for mids - they get even more precise and the rendesring is not anymore flat in the localisation - you will have a nearly pinpoint rendering, the bass gets precise and deep and very powerful - no over emphasized spectrum around 100-250hz anymore. The top end is open and cristal clear without any hint of grain - it sounds as natural as breathing. And if you want to use a stone body coetsu, you need even more eff mass - my measurements show that they are even e little bit stiffer - which is somehow compnesated to the larger weight of the stone bodies - but not enough. That is the tonearm story - if you reed the Koetsu official distributors advice you will find on the pint arm mass midle heavy-heavy - that is just half of the truth. The mark should be on the word heavy! Coming to the amplification of such a Koetsu. If you match it with an active RIAA stage, you have to use 100 Ohm termination resistance. You will read also here different things - because the SME V club tries now, with an incompatible arm, which also is slow in rendering and has a thick low end (but very comfortable in adjustment) - you will read about the termination practice. One says use 400 ohm - it is more oben than - (remember ist sounds almost dull in the wrong arm) - and yes it is true - you get more treble out of the Koetsu at 400 Ohms. But you losse even more bass precision, and the quality of the treble is now bad - the treble does not come anymore from the source which produces it - it comes in front of the source. Imagine a flute - the attack is now located in front of the instrument - not a good thing. So all the rendring in the deepness of the spectrum - from front to back is now destroyed - but it sounds more open and you get more treble - you compansate a bas tonearm matching with electrical termination, a thing which never will have succes. Because a MC cart is a feather mass system - you HAVE TO GET THE RIGHT MASS (arm) against the feather (compliance). You cannot compensate a mechanical mismatch with an electrical mismatch.... Some claim - use even 1Kohm - the things get more worse than I can describe here. So - now, we are talking...... The sometimes bad reputation regarding Koetsu comes only from using arms, made in the 80ties and 90ties with carts in mind, as MM carts (Shure V15) VdH, Benz and so on.... If you use the correct equipment, than you get something very special - something you won´t find exactly that way one again. A Koetsu can sound like heaven...it has something, I would call soul and there is flesh on the bones, and the midtones are amazing, the treble is clear, and natural and you can touch it, The ambiance rendering is also in a class of it´s own. Coming to the SUT now. A Koetsu has 5 Ohm inner impedance. We let the platinum versions out of the game for a moment.... And the Koetsu puts out something about 0,4mV - maybe a little bit more ( not the platin magnet version - I know). The original vintage Koetsu SUT used Triad capsules - they were very, very good. The original SUT had a fixed 5 Ohm position - and the whole thing sounded amazing - they are extremely rare today - and you cannot compare them to what is available today from Koetsu - the "new" SUT sounds dull and liveless....so forget that! A cotter - and there is not one cotter - so read the technical specs - a cotter with a matching 5 ohm position is an amazing match - truly heaven! If you use a SPU compatible SUT the Koetsu gets too much damping - such a SUT has a 2 or 3 ohm tap (position) - so it is a little bit too much. Such a 5 Ohm tab SUT is also perfectly usable for Lyra carts, Zyx (low output), Ortofon (because today only the Meister Silver and the A95 have really low impedance - the Synergy is another story). So a 5 Ohm tab SUT is a good investment. Carts like Meister Silver and A95, SHindo SPU, Ikeda, My Sonic Lab, Air Tight and so on - means really low impedance carts needs a lower figure - the need a 2-3ohm tab. A Kondo IO needs even a 1 Ohm tab - so another story..... Hope that helps.... But keep in mind - everything starts with a proper compatible arm.... And I forgot - such a low compliance cart need also a high torque table - so no Oracle, Linn and so on.... A heavy table, like a Micro Seiki 1500 or even better 5000, a Platineis a great match. A direct driven moded Technics SP10 also. And idler wheels are what Sugano San used to design the cart - so a modded Garrard 301 or 401, a Commonwealth from Australia ( great table), a EMT, Thorens TD124 all are compatible. Newer Designs with high torque is for example a Bauer DPS - in USA distributed by Ayre. All the best Ekki |
#106
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Koetsu
Ekki,
Your excellent posts could serve as a primer on the subject of cart/ arm compatibility , as well, as SUT-related issues. When you talk about Koetsu needing SUT with 5 Ohm tap, it's understandable, but the problem is, that many manufacturers don't publish this value, only a step-up ratio. As an example: Ypsilon MC10- step-up ratio is 1:10 and corresponding load presented to cartridge is 500 Ohm. (when terminated into 47kOhm) Does it mean, that tap value is around 50 Ohm? As it usually about 10 times lower, than the load? Also, there is a correlation b/w step-up ratio and the load presented to the cart: The higher the ratio, the lower the load So, the Koetsu SUT with a 5 Ohm tap ( meaning appr. 50 Ohm load?) has relatively high step up ratio? BTW, do you have any experience with Ypsilon step-ups? Thanks again Last edited by maril555; 01-15-2016 at 02:20 PM. |
#107
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Dear guys,
the Koetsu SUT has a turn ratio of 1:20 - also the one we could buy a while ago - which is also discontinued. The tab thing with the transformers is a special story - I think it should made things easier - the idea was - if you know the internal resistance of your MC coils, - let´s say an SPU (3 Ohm) than you choose the 3 Ohm tab - if it is a DL 103 (40 Ohm) you should use the 40 Ohm tab. That does not mean, that the cart "sees" 3 or 40 ohm.... With the SPU on a 3 Ohm tab connected to a 47Kohm RIAA the SPU "sees" something about 50 - 60 Ohm - and the DL 103 connected to the 40 Ohm tab "sees" 100 Ohm. So a lot of people think now...ok, - if I use a Koetsu on an active RIAA I should terminate it with 100 Ohm (as I wrote above) - so it is correct to use the 40 Ohm tab - wich let see the cart also 100 Ohm...but that is wrong. SUT termination is something completely different, than with a resistor. The SUT termination works with current, the resistor with Volts....as also the amplification is done differently current versus V... So - keep that in mind. With a SUT a Koetsu should "see" something around 60-70 Ohm. With a DL 103 compatible SUT it will sound too nervous in the hights and the treble again does not come anymore from the source of the instruments - it is up front, which is not what it should be. Listen always carefully - sometimes the first obvious thing is not that, what matters..... A lot of people dance an jump because now the Koetsu has more treble energy - but it is not a natural treble coming from the source of the instruments - it is synthetic. By the way - read again the tonearm facts regarding Koetsu - 80% of what we read is the sound of a not compatible adjusted Koetsu - worst thing - in an SME V arm, which can do miracles with a Kiseki, which is high compliance! Have fun and enjoy the music Ekki |
#108
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Dear maril555 - no I do not have any experience with Y SUT´s.
There are so many fantastic SUT´s vintage and new on the market, that the big question is, what does Y bring to the table..... Great SUT´s are: - to name a view.... A23 Hommage T1 A23 Hommage T2 Audio Note Japan S7 (vintage) widely switchable Audio Note Japan KSL (now also vintage) switchable between 1, 3 and 40 Ohm Cotter - all of them Air Tight ATH2A - switchable between 2 and 40 Ohm Air Tight ATH2A Reference - switchable between 2 and 40 Ohm Vintage Koetsu (5 Ohm tab fixed) Lyra Errodion ( also 5 Ohm tab fixed - especially with a Lyra Skala a revelation) Jensen DIY Lundahl DIY De Paravicini vintage ones Ortofon T1000 - great for SPU - but not the same quality as the Hommage T1 EMT / Haufe specially for EMT (has 22 Ohm and 1:7) Vintage Partridge Jorgen Shou great for SPU Triad - found in old Shindo Arome WE - also found in vintage Shindo SUT Bent Audio / Stevens & Billington FR sut - specially the low impedance types And so on...... Not all are in the same class - but are good to outstanding - better than most of the more popular ones.... So what does Y do???? - I think another me too product.... It is not so easy to put a vintage FR or Ikeda SUT into dust...or a Cotter....in SUT technology everything was said in the past - and they built great ones - really outstanding ones...and you do not have to pay 8000,- for it....! Greetings Ekki |
#109
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Ah yes excellent Précis of the SUTs Q--not forgetting the prince of them all
The Expressive Technologies SU-1 Thank you again for your outstanding contribution to his thread DesW |
#110
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Hi DesW,
my SUT list is not complete of course;-))) And the Expressive SU-1 is really one of the best ever made - so sorry for leaving that masterpiece out.... Greetings to you all Ekki |
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