New member

[junker]

The EMT SFL is pretty much an end game cartridge. You can do different but not necessarily better. Excellent cartridge. It will have a lot more detail with the super fine line stylus profile vs. a spherical Denon 103. Different creatures really. Also, the EMT puts out about 5x more gain than the Denon.

Originally Posted by fjn04

My experience with the Shindo family has always been great. I have heard speaker A (90DB/4ohm), with amplifier B, in a system where a Shindo amp would not be appropriate. The pre was a Shindo, using Shindo interconnect. I'm not going to claim this system was my holy grail, but it was VERY good. I have no doubt, better than if the preamp was one of the other usual suspects. I ended up staying the course, and went with a Shindo preamp/amp/A23 cabling, and appropriate speakers. At this time, a nice pair of Valencia 846A's, and DeVore 96's. I'm certainly not looking back, only forward. I want to ad another TT setup next year, and am undecided as to which one. My Amadeus GTA, another great purchase via team Shindo, will stay. I can't see going Denon 103, although I'm sure it punches well above it's weight. Plus, I doubt it's the equal of my Tsd-15 SFL, and it apparently likes high mass arms. I am open to going with an appropriate SPU, but of course it makes the choice of tables a bit tougher. The consensus again, High mass 12" arm…. Price range is around 10K for table and arm. Here again, my price range will preclude consideration of Shindo 301, or the new SPEC table. It should be a fun and interesting year. Now back to our OP, and regularly scheduled programming. Cheers -Don

[maril555]

Originally Posted by junker

The gain values and loading are specific to the intended cartridge, and in the V-R MC design that is going to be for the Shindo Cartridge. You can estimate the step-up ratio by dividing the input sensitivity of the MM divided by the that of the MC as listed in the specs I posted for you earlier from the Shindo website.

I'm not sure I understand how the phono stage gain is dependent on the cartridge used?
I always thought its a fixed value, determined by the design of a given phono stage.
Especially when one talks about step-up ratio of the built in SUT?
Many manufacturers provide specs for the gain values, without any further explanation of the value being dependent on the cartridge used

[maril555]

Originally Posted by junker

The gain values and loading are specific to the intended cartridge, and in the V-R MC design that is going to be for the Shindo Cartridge. You can estimate the step-up ratio by dividing the input sensitivity of the MM divided by the that of the MC as listed in the specs I posted for you earlier from the Shindo website.

Thank you for the calculation- it appears to be 1:15 for VR (3 mV/ 0.2 mV)

[755a]

I had a denon 103 with the standard A23 SUT. It was great. I now have the EMT TSD 15 sfl with the A23 T2 homage SUT and it is vastly superior to the denon combo.

[junker]

Originally Posted by maril555

I'm not sure I understand how the phono stage gain is dependent on the cartridge used?
I always thought its a fixed value, determined by the design of a given phono stage.
Especially when one talks about step-up ratio of the built in SUT?
Many manufacturers provide specs for the gain values, without any further explanation of the value being dependent on the cartridge used

I'd take some time to research SUTs further because honestly it isn't a simple topic suitable to forum chit-chat. My feeling is that you don't quite fully appreciate everything involved with cartridge (output, impedance), step-up transformers, and phono input stages. Also, please consult with your dealer as they know what set-ups work well together. Jonathan is right about a systems approach with regard to vinyl playback - you absolutely need to have your phono stage, cartridge, and SUT integrated as a solution.

The cartridge motor puts out voltage at a particular record speed, and the amplifier has a certain sensitivity. All of the gain stages between the cartridge and amplifier are CRITICAL. Tube input stages are more tolerant than SS input stages - they overdrive more gracefully. So, in short, the MM stage provides additional gain versus a line stage, and the MC stage provides additional gain to the MM stage, as well as providing critical loading values which also depend on BOTH the input impedance of your pre-amp as well as the output impedance of the SPECIFIC cartridge. As stated before an SUT used for an MC gain stage needs to be specifically suited to both the required gain (step-up ratio) and loading. For a "simple" device, SUT design is a dark art, very advanced electromagnetic science, and challenging to manufacturer properly.

And your comment about what many manufacturers do has absolutely no bearing on the right or best way to do something. Shindo is not like many manufacturers. The best phono stages are either designed as an integrated solution, or are adjustable. For example here is the Pass XP-25:

[maril555]

Originally Posted by junker

I'd take some time to research SUTs further because honestly it isn't a simple topic suitable to forum chit-chat. My feeling is that you don't quite fully appreciate everything involved with cartridge (output, impedance), step-up transformers, and phono input stages. Also, please consult with your dealer as they know what set-ups work well together. Jonathan is right about a systems approach with regard to vinyl playback - you absolutely need to have your phono stage, cartridge, and SUT integrated as a solution.

The cartridge motor puts out voltage at a particular record speed, and the amplifier has a certain sensitivity. All of the gain stages between the cartridge and amplifier are CRITICAL. Tube input stages are more tolerant than SS input stages - they overdrive more gracefully. So, in short, the MM stage provides additional gain versus a line stage, and the MC stage provides additional gain to the MM stage, as well as providing critical loading values which also depend on BOTH the input impedance of your pre-amp as well as the output impedance of the SPECIFIC cartridge. As stated before an SUT used for an MC gain stage needs to be specifically suited to both the required gain (step-up ratio) and loading. For a "simple" device, SUT design is a dark art, very advanced electromagnetic science, and challenging to manufacturer properly.

And your comment about what many manufacturers do has absolutely no bearing on the right or best way to do something. Shindo is not like many manufacturers. The best phono stages are either designed as an integrated solution, or are adjustable. For example here is the Pass XP-25:

Now it's pretty clear... I don't have a good understanding of the issue.
AS a brief summary- does it mean, that a particular phono stage will produce different gain when paired with different cartridges?

[junker]

Not sure if this answers exactly what you are asking but most MC cartridges put out between 0.2 and 1.0 mV, while most MM stages have a sensitivity of about 5mV. I think your Shindo was 3mV. The SUT needs to take the cartridge output up to about that of the pre-amp MM sensitivity, while at the same time providing the correct loading for the cartridge. There is some wiggle room here, but a Denon 103 likes ~100 ohms where a traditional SPU likes something much lower, and the EMT likes something higher. Hope that helps. I have my Denon 103R loaded for 100ohms and 16x step-up. Once I come back around to upgrade my turntable to a Garrard it will definitely be with an EMT SFL form Matt at Pitch Perfect! =)

[querstrommotor]

Regarding to the SUT/cartridge matching, I like to go a little more into details.....
We always read here, that a A23 Denon SUT is not such a good match to an EMT cart, than the A23 T2, so why is that the case....???
The original EMT step up transformers in the EMT 930 ans 927 turntables had a step up ratio if 1:7, the reason for that is that an EMT TSD15 has a nominal output of 1mV.
The internal impedance is something around 22 Ohm.
Now let´s see the technical data on the DL 103 - a standard DL 103 - not the R version has a internal impedance of 40 Ohm and the output is around 0,25mV - that is 4(!!!!!) times lower than the EMT has.
Let´s put away the impedance difference for a moment and think about the output voltage of both carts.
If we use a standard DL 103 SUT - like the A23 Denon SUT, than we get something around 24-26db gain with such a SUT - because it has a much higher turn ratio, than the original vintage EMT transformer designed to match the cart.

Lets get a step further and have a look on the gain stages of a given RIAA stage.
Lets say our RIAA has a total amount of gain in MM mode of 40db, which is quite usual for a lot of tube RIAA stages - than we get with the Denon compatible SUT a total amount of gain of around 26db+40db from the MM tube RIAA stage - makes together 66db gain, which is a good match for a classic DL 103 with 0,25mV output.
Now lets calculate that with the EMT TSD15.
As the TSD15 has a lower internal impedance in comparison to the Denon (22Ohm instead of 40Ohm) we will get a bit less gain from our DL103 compatible SUT - it will be around 22db - together with the 40db gain of our given tube MM RIAA stage we will have
something like 62db total gain with the EMT.
Now back to the technical specs of the EMT - this cart has 1mV output!!!!
It never needs 62db total amount of phono gain.

Now lets go even one more step further into this - the input of our RIAA stages gets the output of the cart - "amplified" with the turn ratio of a given SUT.
In our example the input of our tube RIAA gets a way too hot signal from the team EMT/DL103compatible SUT.
That will cause compression - and it will cause a type of swinging, because the loudest signal is not the music cut in our records, much louder are the clicks and pops.
So our RIAA will be able to handle a record with low cutted amplitude - in a case where we have a orchestra tutti, it will compress, and in the case of a click or popp wie will have much more problems....

That little example shows why a DL 103 SUT is NOT a good idea to use with an EMT cart.
And yes - there might be RIAA stages with a max. amount of 30db gain - were such a SUT might work - but absolutely not with a RIAA with 40 or more db of gain!

Lets have a look at the impedance side of our example.
The DL 103 has nearly twice as much internal resistance - 40 Ohm - the EMT has 22.
If we connect a DL 103 to a compatible SUT - like the A23 Denon SUT, the cart sees if our RIAA has a input impedance of 47Kohm (standard) 100 Ohm.
That is a good SUT termination of the DL 103 - the EMT works not optimal with these data....

That is the reason why EMT did not use a 1:10 SUT in the past - and that is also the reason, why a Hommage T2 works better - much better with an EMT than the DL 103 SUT.

As you can see it is no voodoo it is plain physics.

Lets come to the low impedance side of a Hommage T1 or a Shindo internal SUT.
As we hopefully know - the original Ortofon SPU was a cart, which had a internal resistance of 3Ohm or lower.
Today Ortofon changed that - nearly on every SPU.
Today we have only the Meister Silver, which has around 3 Ohm internal resistance (the older version had 2 Ohm).
A SPU Classic has 6 Ohm as it is also the case with the SPU Royal.
You might now suggest the Synergy SPU´s - but thy are a different thing - they have internal resistance which would match the old generation of SPU´s, they have 2 or 3 Ohm resistance - but, and that is a big BUT - they have nearly double as much output as a classic original vintage SPU had....!!!!
They used a technique we find in MC´s as My Sonic Lab and Air Tight PC1 or PC1 Supreme - all Matsudaira San made carts, who uses a very special core to achieve low impedance and high output for that given impedance - so everything else than the original SPU stuff.
As I understand, Shindo made his phono sections with a classic original SPU in mind - so non of the modern SPU carts will match his design, the only one today would be the Meister Silver SPU or his own Shindo SPU.

If we go again a little bit deeper - the Shindo Mersault arm is made with a SPU A geometry in mind - if you look today at the Ortofon portfolio, you will recognize, there is no single SPU A available anymore....
And as Jonathan mentioned, also the shell material changed in the past.
No backelite anymore - they used aluminium, and today a sort of resin - so also that detail ist different today....

That means, if you have a Shindo arm, there is today only the Shindo SPU, which is a true classic SPU A with a backelite shell.
If you use a SPU on a Ligno Lab Garrard together with a tonearm of your choice - lets say the EMT arm, than you have a chance to order that arm with a G shell geometry and so you are able to use a Meister Silver SPU together with that arm - and have a combination, which will work properly with the internal SUT of a Shindo phono section.

Lets talk about a Koetsu now - a Koetsu has a internal resistance of 5 Ohm - that is also the case with a wide range of carts today - nearly all Lyra carts have around 5 Ohm (not the Delos!!!!), Dynavector Te Kaitora and so on.
A Koetsu needs a different turn ratio - not as high, as a true classic SPU - it works best with SUT´s which have around 1:20 - the internal SUT´s in the Shindo phono sections have a much higher turn ratio - which is made - you guess it.....for a classic - original - SPU!!!!!

There are today some SUT´s on the market, which fit the bill of a Kotsu - that is the Koetsu SUT itself (not the best....and way tooo expensive for what it is), a Lyra Erodion (much better than the Koetsu SUT), Bob´s Devices, Silver Core (very good) and so on....

As you can see, there are a lot of things to keep in mind - if the result should work the best way.

If we come back to Shindo - Ken had always the complete chain in mind - not just one piece of gear - it is a whole system!
And the gear has a historic approach!

The historic approach is in todays world in most if the cases the deal breaker - because today most of the high end world stepped miles away from what we had in the 50ties and 60ties.
Today we have nearly no thin paper loudspeakers anymore, as you could see in my writing above - a Ortofon SPU today is something completely different, than 20 years ago, cables are made today, which damp HF - a problem which was non existent in classic tub technology.
Today our modern high tech HiFi gear has switching power supplies and a lot of digital HF - so these modern cables makes sometimes sense with what the industry has to offer today - but it is totally wrong with classic tube stuff!!!!
Power cables are heavy shielded today because of all the HF dirt the gar produces itself ( a media server is nothing else, than a computer!) - in a classic tube system, we do not need that - and it is again not compatible with such equipment.
A classic made tube amp sounds best with unshielded power cables - as Shindo uses them - it looks strange in comparison to a NBS cable (looks impressive - true high end....????) - which is fine with a Mark Levinson but not with a Shindo, Air Tight, vintage Marantz 8B oder 9.....

And finally all this true classic tube gear has input and output impedance values, which are long forgotten today.
In classic tube preamps, you have mainly 3 techniques to lower the output-impednace to around 600 Ohm or lower, that is an output transformer, a SRPP output stage or a kathode follower.
Normally those 600 Ohm (it was a standard in the past - what a great time that was....!) output impedance of such a classic tube pre worked with a power amp which had 10 Kohm input impedance - a perfect match!
Now go ahead, and look to the modern power amps - and their input impedance - and you will recognize, that we are far away from that standard, we had in the past.
Another problem is - that a classic tube line stage has way tooo much gain for what a modern amp needs - today we have digital gear with output voltage of 2V and much, much more....a DCS Paganini could generate 6V!!!!!
So a preamp is today a voltage damping device!
In those years in the 60ties we needed gain - because our main source was a record player - with a SPU cart, which had after all gain stages of our phono section something around 1V - and less!!!!

I could go on and on - what I wrote are just a view examples - just a view.......


Hope that enlightens a little bit, why Jonathan is telling us to keep on track with gear, which is compatible to what Shindo produces.
To built up a Shindo system is a totally different kind of thing as nearly all the other stuff we put together today - and to be honest - how often does a modern system, we put together with different brands and technology get the synergy a complete Sindo setting has to offer....together with some of the other products, like for example EMT and A23 which is compatible to the classic way Shindo constructed his gear.

Have a nice day and hopefully some better understanding of the things behind the curtain - and sorry for my english....

Ekki

[maril555]

Originally Posted by junker

Not sure if this answers exactly what you are asking but most MC cartridges put out between 0.2 and 1.0 mV, while most MM stages have a sensitivity of about 5mV. I think your Shindo was 3mV. The SUT needs to take the cartridge output up to about that of the pre-amp MM sensitivity, while at the same time providing the correct loading for the cartridge. There is some wiggle room here, but a Denon 103 likes ~100 ohms where a traditional SPU likes something much lower, and the EMT likes something higher. Hope that helps. I have my Denon 103R loaded for 100ohms and 16x step-up. Once I come back around to upgrade my turntable to a Garrard it will definitely be with an EMT SFL form Matt at Pitch Perfect! =)

It does and it doesn't
Let me rephrase it.
Let's assume a particular phono stage is specified to have 60 dB of gain through MC stage
The way I understand you, with cartridge X it will have 60 dB and with Cartridge Y it can possibly produce 65dB ?

[junker]

No, it just adds that much gain to whatever the cartridge is putting out. So, you need more gain with a low output cartridge and less gain with a high output cartridge.