Eliminating Digital Thinness of Tone--Which Electronics?

[MtnHam]

"Thinness" is not factor of digital nor SS components. As already stated, it's a matter of the entire system. Tone controls should not be necessary, nor are, IMO, desirable; at best, a fix for a problem that should be addressed elsewhere. My system is rich in tone, top to bottom, with either of my two digital sources, in-spite of the Ayre KXR and MXR's. In fact, I believe they contribute greatly.

[Steady339]

Originally Posted by Alberto

Thank you so much for the "plug" Gary .

Roger,

The Delicious One is a tone control, albeit a very unique one, and you use the word "digital thinness of tone" in your description.

However, because your definition of thinness may differ from mine there's no way to be sure that The Delicious One will address your problem so I can't make a confident recommendation in good conscience.

I could write a book about thin, lean, harsh recordings and the ways I've tried to address them. I've learned quite a bit in the process, and I'd start by saying that tubes are not the magic answers. I've owned/heard tube preamps and amps that were much more lean/analytical than some solid state gear--and vice-versa.

This is an overgeneralization; but based on my experiments and experience, when you encounter a tube component that sounds particularly rich and juicy (the opposite of thin) you will typically see a fair amount of euphonic (pleasant sounding) harmonic distortion that gives the impression of a fatter/richer sound.

I have been experimenting with building a device that allows the user to add a variable amount (and type) of harmonic distortion. It's too early for me to reach any conclusions, but it seems to work; it is, however, a very laborious and complicated way to address the problem and the effect is much more subtle than tone controls. I say this because I've found that by adding/cutting a few decibels here and there (at the right frequencies) via tone controls or equalizers seems to accomplish the desired result–at least for me.

Here's a little helpful cheat-sheet that I've created for myself (so that at least I use the terms consistently as I continue my research on tone). Please keep in mind that this was developed for personal use, there no implication that these are official definition of the terms we so often toss around when talking about tone.



Have you experimented with preamps with tone controls or with equalizers? Do they help with the thinness you describe?

Alberto

Alberto, Thanks for your reply and explanation of your device--sounds like an interesting approach to attempt to eliminate what I call "digital thinness" of tone from digital sources.

By "digital thinness" I mean that when I hear live acoustic music in a good concert hall the sound is harmonically richer in timbre or "fatter" in tone than I often hear from digital sources.

In the days when records were the main source of home playback the issue of thinness of tone from sources was largely a non-issue because of the "fat" pleasant sounding tone produced by 2" tape recording and by the record/phonograph cartridge front end on playback systems.

But of course digital recordings have improved a lot, and with the better and more recent digital recordings "digital thinness" of tone has become less of an issue.

[Steady339]

Originally Posted by MtnHam

"Thinness" is not factor of digital nor SS components. As already stated, it's a matter of the entire system. Tone controls should not be necessary, nor are, IMO, necessary. My system is rich in tone, top to bottom, with either of my two digital sources, in-spite of the Ayre KXR and MXR's. In fact, I believe they contribute greatly.

I would strongly disagree with you that "thinness" is not a factor of digital nor SS.

From the dawn of days when CD first appeared audiophiles have often complained that digital has tended to sound "too clean", lacking in tone and less involving than records.

I can remember building both transistor and tube audio circuits in college and easily noticing how much better the tube circuits sounded.

Of course both digital recordings and SS have improved a lot since my college days. But in my experience I still prefer tube playback equipment with digital sources--tubes can simply be more involving to listen to!

[MtnHam]

Originally Posted by Steady339

I would strongly disagree with you that "thinness" is not a factor of digital nor SS.

From the dawn of days when CD first appeared audiophiles have often complained that digital has tended to sound "too clean", lacking in tone and less involving than records.

I can remember building both transistor and tube audio circuits in college and easily noticing how much better the tube circuits sounded.

Of course both digital recordings and SS have improved a lot since my college days. But in my experience I still prefer tube playback equipment with digital sources--tubes can simply be more involving to listen to!

Digital gear introduces noise that is transmitted back to the other components via the AC lines. My recent introduction of Shunyata products to my system has eliminated this contamination and subsequent degradation of overall SQ. The bloom of tone at all frequencies is stunning, even with older digital recordings. While I have owned and appreciated a lot of great tube equipment, I don't feel I have given up anything with my SS gear. And, I certainly don't miss the heat and other downsides of tubes. I leave my SS gear on 24/7- it's ready to deliver pure pleasure on a moment's notice.

[MtnHam]

Originally Posted by Steady339

I would strongly disagree with you that "thinness" is not a factor of digital nor SS.

Any other opinions here? Do most AA members think tubes and analogue are a necessity to avoid "thinness"?

[GaryProtein]

Originally Posted by MtnHam

"Thinness" is not factor of digital nor SS components. As already stated, it's a matter of the entire system. Tone controls should not be necessary, nor are, IMO, desirable; at best, a fix for a problem that should be addressed elsewhere. My system is rich in tone, top to bottom, with either of my two digital sources, in-spite of the Ayre KXR and MXR's. In fact, I believe they contribute greatly.

Tone controls are only unnecessary if you believe all the recording engineers knew what they were doing!

OR at low volumes where the ear's response curve becomes less sensitive to bass. Alberto's Delicious Decibels can be a big help when you can't crank it up.

[audioguy3107]

Originally Posted by MtnHam

Any other opinions here? Do most AA members think tubes and analogue are a necessity to avoid "thinness"?

I don't necessarily think that you have to avoid a solid state digital based system, but I would say your "margin for error" may be a little smaller when it comes to component matching. There are definitely electronics that could accentuate that kind of problem, but only extensive auditioning would really hold the key. Off the top of my head, electronics known for not being overly bright or thin would include Pass Labs, Ayre Acoustics, McIntosh, older class A running Krell pieces. I'm sure others can chime in more with some ideas. As for the analog, I'll just say that I'm a vinyl newbie for about 6 months now and if I listen to CDs for an extended period of time, then switch back to vinyl, there's no question that the overall sound is more laid back and smoother (with some exceptions of course). Tubes can most definitely help the situation though!

- Buck

[Antonmb]

Perhaps "thinness" was a problem directly related to digital at one time, but frankly I always found the bigger problem with digital in the early days was harshness and grain. However today with some of the great digital source components and well recorded and engineered digital music available, there is no reason to have "thin" sound from a digital source. With a well-matched system (source, cables, amplification and speakers) you can have great sound from both digital and analog. While my system is not at the upper end, I have no problem with thinness, and I have heard digital systems that were absolutely stunning - and definitely not thin.

[Kal Rubinson]

Originally Posted by MtnHam

Do most AA members think tubes and analogue are a necessity to avoid "thinness"?

Dunno but I avoid both tubes and analog sources and I have no issues with "thinness" in my system.

[imprezap2]

No tubes or analog in my system, also no "digital thiness"

My experience is that in harsh sounding systems something is wrong with either system matching or power supply.

Olaf