New Thor's Hammer Installed

[Charles]

Originally Posted by BillK

When do you add the second for a stereo pair?

Bilk, Thanks for the interest in my system. I will not be adding a stereo pair. If you look at my arrangement, I have no room to do it. Of course anything can be done but it would take a massive rearrangement of my speakers and amps.

The question becomes, would I get better sound? IMO, I would get worse sound. With a crossover at 30 Hz LP there is zero directionality. My bass is now quite smooth down to below 20 Hz. I have been able to eliminate my 40 Hz 3-4 dB peak by setting my phase control at 90 degrees so I now have slightly less bass. My previous bass was so good that the peak only became noticeable on albums with obviously too much bass in the 30-50 Hz range. Then I would remember my bass peak. Otherwise, on 99% of my music it was forgotten. Who complains about a little extra beautifu bass?

Then I read about how Greg Weaver of TAS smoothed out the bass of his Ultra 9's (Oct 2019 vol 298 p.136 2nd paragraph). I had never in my 40 plus years of high end ever fully understood subwoofer phase. My source at Wilson told me how to check it. When I did I found that 0 degrees was the correct setting. This is no mystery as my Thor and the XVX are in the same plane and I had the phase set to 0 for lack of knowing where else to set it. It was easy to hear the bass at 40 Hz significantly diminish on the Wilson test CD at phase set at 180 degrees. After experimentation 90 degrees very significantly eliminated my 3-4 dB 40 Hz peak without affecting the rest of my bass range. It was like a miracle. My bass peak that had always been in my system, eliminated. Now no one hearing my system today would say it is bass shy. But for me I have slightly less bass and I like it a lot better. I don't like dsp or equalizers because I can hear them, the distortion they add. I'd rather put up with a clean 3-4 dB peak. I had this peak with stereo subs (Gen II's and Mac XRT 30's). Also with Krell Master Reference subwoofer (mono setting where the Thor is). It was endemic to my room. Previously, I thought it could not be eliminated.

Incidentally, I had always had a bass dip in the 100 Hz range. Previously, I had a strong 200 Hz note, a weaker 125 Hz, and a weak 100 Hz, then the bass would come back up on the 80 Hz note and be smooth until the 40 Hz peak and then extend smoothly to below 20 Hz. However, with the XVX the 125-100 Hz notes are strong. I no longer have a bass dip. I have remarked to Wilson that the XVX in my room has the best upper bass I have had. The XVX has a powerful upper bass in my room.

I really like jazz. It's my favorite music. With jazz you want a nimble, accurate, highly resolving bass with weight only when weight is appropriate.

So at this point I will not be adding another Thor. The improvement I would consider is the new sub crossover Wilson has developed. But they were kind enough to include a new Watch Controller (at no charge) with my new Thor. I'm going to keep it for a while. It's a very fine piece of gear but at some point I will be adding the new crossover.

Best,

Charles

[McMusicman]

Thank you Charles for Posting your tip. I too have the same 40Hz spike and found it with the test tones but did not consider a 90 deg phase shift as a solution. Beautiful system you have and I can only imagine how wonderful it must sound.

[Charles]

Originally Posted by McMusicman

Thank you Charles for Posting your tip. I too have the same 40Hz spike and found it with the test tones but did not consider a 90 deg phase shift as a solution. Beautiful system you have and I can only imagine how wonderful it must sound.

McMusicman, thanks for the compliment very much. I encourage you to read the TAS review of the Ultra 9. It's the best tip I have ever read. Why? Because it absolutely worked in my system. Using a test CD find the maximum and minimum phase setting on your crossover. It is easy to hear once you know it's there. Wilson said to listen to the 30 Hz note which I did, but I found the 40 Hz note more affected and this just happened to be where my bass peak has always been. I found 180 degrees too much correction. (I listened for a week or two at the 180 degree setting before coming to this conclusion. This was with the old Thor because I received the new crossover weeks before I received the new Thor. The thing that got all this started was my Watch Controller went bad. Wilson sent me a new one at no charge weeks before I decided on the new Thor. I said to myself, "new WC why not a new Thor?" The rest is history. Wilson is a fantastic company to deal with. They treat you right.)

So I tried 90 degrees and have not changed.

It really is like having your cake and eating it too. I have extensive room treatments but I don't believe room treatments can correct something like this. I had no hope of ever correcting this peak. In the high end if you don't become tolerant of imperfection, you will never be happy with your system. I was totally happy with my system before. Now I am even happier. I may try out Wilson's new sub crossover in the future even though I am totally happy with what I have now. I don't make upgrades because I am dissatisfied. I make upgrades to become more satisfied and because upgrades are a lot of fun. I hope the tip works for you.

[crwilli]

Charles, The phase adjustment mentioned seems to be the same or similar process to what JL Audio suggests.

Basically, you if using one sub, reverse the cables on your speaker closest to the sub, unplug the other speaker, play a test tone at the crossover frequency you are using between the sub and your mains. Then either listen or measure when the sound pressure exactly half-way between the sub and the main speaker is lowest when turning the phase knob on the JL Audio sub.

I find it is easier use my Sound pressure meter. When it is at its minimum you have as best you can, tuned the sub to be in phase with that speaker.

Reconnect your other speaker, reverse the leads on the main you measured and you are good to go.

It works like a charm. I too have played around with what frequency to use and have found +\- 10 Hz around the crossover can make a big difference so it pays to play around with that as well.

[BillK]

[QUOTE=Charles;1007705]Bilk, Thanks for the interest in my system. I will not be adding a stereo pair. If you look at my arrangement, I have no room to do it. Of course anything can be done but it would take a massive rearrangement of my speakers and amps.
/QUOTE]

I had asked about that simply because in almost every case where someone has said "I don't need a stereo pair, it's non-directional" a second sub for a stereo pair has had sonic benefits.

I note that of course they can obviously afford to do anything, but when Wilson demonstrates the Thor's Hammer they also always use a stereo pair.

[Charles]

[QUOTE=BillK;1007752]

Originally Posted by Charles

Bilk, Thanks for the interest in my system. I will not be adding a stereo pair. If you look at my arrangement, I have no room to do it. Of course anything can be done but it would take a massive rearrangement of my speakers and amps.
/QUOTE]

I had asked about that simply because in almost every case where someone has said "I don't need a stereo pair, it's non-directional" a second sub for a stereo pair has had sonic benefits.

I note that of course they can obviously afford to do anything, but when Wilson demonstrates the Thor's Hammer they also always use a stereo pair.

Bilk,

If you place a mono sub off in a corner on one side of the room with a relatively high LP frequency, the subwoofer bass becomes very directional. However, my Thor is in the same plane and equidistant from my XVX. With a LP crossover frequency of 30 Hz my sub bass is non directional.

I theoretically agree that 2 subs properly positioned are better than one for smoothing out bass unless the mono sub is positioned like mine. If you go to the Wilson website and look at the Thor in the Product PDF you will see the Thor featured between two XLF exactly as I have my Thor. Wilson is the only company I know of that advocates a mono horizontal lie. The Thor finished out for a horizontal lie is 27,000 dollars as opposed to 25,000. My Thor is finished out for a horizontal lie.

Best

Charles

[Charles]

Originally Posted by crwilli

Charles, The phase adjustment mentioned seems to be the same or similar process to what JL Audio suggests.

Basically, you if using one sub, reverse the cables on your speaker closest to the sub, unplug the other speaker, play a test tone at the crossover frequency you are using between the sub and your mains. Then either listen or measure when the sound pressure exactly half-way between the sub and the main speaker is lowest when turning the phase knob on the JL Audio sub.

I find it is easier use my Sound pressure meter. When it is at its minimum you have as best you can, tuned the sub to be in phase with that speaker.

Reconnect your other speaker, reverse the leads on the main you measured and you are good to go.

It works like a charm. I too have played around with what frequency to use and have found +\- 10 Hz around the crossover can make a big difference so it pays to play around with that as well.

crwilli, Thanks for the post. It should be read and appreciated by many who own subwoofers. The internal wiring of the XVX and the Thor is such that if you go red to positive and black to ground with the Audioquest speaker cables, the system will be in phase. It cannot be otherwise. Therefore, the phase should be set to 0 degrees for maximum coupling of the Thor with the XVX. I believe this is regardless of where the sub is positioned relative to the main speakers.

Let's take a pair of main speakers and intentionally wire them out of phase. They sound awful. The bass is diminished and the voice sounds disembodied. Anyone who has heard this immediately recognizes the speakers are out of phase. With my Maxx3 installation they let an inexperienced technician connect the speaker cables. I was quite nervous, it being my first Wilson. I heard the sound and was shocked until I realized the Maxx3's were out of phase. With this corrected the speakers sounded great.

I don't believe moving the Maxx3's forward or backward would have corrected the awful sound. I don't believe this type of problem can be corrected by positioning.

Similarly, I believe no matter where you position your subs, if they are wired correctly, they will be electrically in phase. If you are using a sub and main from different manufacturers, due to different internal wiring, even if you obey the red to positive and black to negative rule, your sub(s) could still be electrically out of phase with your mains.

So first and foremost, you must be certain your sub(s) begins electrically in phase with the mains. Placement of the sub(s) in relation to the mains or to each other cannot cause them to go out of phase. That is my opinion.

I believe it beneficial to have the subs in the same plane with the mains, if possible, but we are talking about low bass and using positioning to smooth out the bass, so having the sub(s) in the same plane with the mains is not necessary, if you achieve better base with say a corner placement behind the mains.

Using the phase control on the crossover affects the electrical phase and a 180 degree setting is like red to negative and black to positive. Regardless of where you ultimately place your sub(s), altering the electrical phase will alter the bass of your system. This is another way of saying that electrical phase is independent of the positioning of the sub(s) in relation to the mains. This is my opinion.

I previously would have thought that sub(s) deliberately out of phase with the mains would only be deleterious in a manner similar to wiring the mains out of phase. No one would ever want their mains to be 90 degrees out of phase with each other, for example. Deliberately wiring the mains out of phase by crossing the spades deliberately results in a 180 degree out of phase condition.

That's what is so counter-intuitive about Greg Weaver's tip. His tip states that in some cases altering the electrical phase to result in an out of phase condition can be beneficial in relation to sub(s) and their mains. Certainly not all cases. I previously thought that the crossover phase control was there to correct for the fact that most of the time sub(s) are behind the mains. I no longer believe this to be the case.

So be sure your sub(s) and mains are wired in phase to begin with. Then position your sub(s) for smoothest/best bass. If still dissatisfied because of a peak, discover the frequency that the 180 degree out of phase crossover setting most affects, and then go from there to see if changing the phase might have a beneficial effect.


Best

Charles

[crwilli]

Originally Posted by Charles

The internal wiring of the XVX and the Thor is such that if you go red to positive and black to ground with the Audioquest speaker cables, the system will be in phase. It cannot be otherwise. Therefore, the phase should be set to 0 degrees for maximum coupling of the Thor with the XVX. I believe this is regardless of where the sub is positioned relative to the main speakers.

Let's take a pair of main speakers and intentionally wire them out of phase. They sound awful. The bass is diminished and the voice sounds disembodied. Anyone who has heard this immediately recognizes the speakers are out of phase. With my Maxx3 installation they let an inexperienced technician connect the speaker cables. I was quite nervous, it being my first Wilson. I heard the sound and was shocked until I realized the Maxx3 were out of phase. With this corrected the speakers sounded great.

I don't believe moving the Maxx3's forward or backward would have corrected the awful sound by correcting the switched wires. I don't believe this type of problem can be corrected by positioning.

Similarly, I believe no matter where you position your subs, if they are wired correctly, they will be electrically in phase. If you are using a sub and main from different manufacturers, due to different internal wiring, even if you obey the red to positive and black to negative rule, your sub could still be electrically out of phase with your mains.

So first and foremost, you must be certain your sub(s) begins electrically in phase with the mains. Placement of the sub(s) in relation to the mains or to each other cannot cause them to go out of phase. That is my opinion.

I believe it beneficial to have the subs in the same plane with the mains, if possible but we are talking about low bass and using positioning to smooth out the bass, so having the sub(s) in the same plane with the mains is not necessary, if you achieve better base with say a corner placement behind the mains.

Using the phase control on the crossover affects the electrical phase and a 180 degree setting is like red to negative and black to positive. Regardless of where you ultimately place your sub(s), altering the electrical phase will alter the bass of your system. This is another way of saying that electrical phase is independent of the positioning of the sub(s) in relation to the mains. This is my opinion.

I previously would have thought that sub(s) out of phase with the mains would only be deleterious in a manner similar to wiring the mains out of phase. No one would ever want their mains to be 90 degrees out of phase with each other, for example.

That's what is so counter-intuitive about Greg Weaver's tip. I thought that the phase control was their to correct for the fact that most of the time sub(s) are behind the mains. I no longer believe this to be the case.

So be sure your sub(s) and mains are wired in phase to begin with. Then position your sub(s) for smoothest/best bass. If still dissatisfied discover the frequency that the 180 degree out of phase most affects and then go from there to see if changing the phase might have a beneficial effect.

It did for me which surprised me greatly. It smoothed out my bass without affecting the quality in the least. In fact it improved the quality.

Best

Charles

I think you misunderstood my comments. I fully agree all your speakers should be wired in phase with each via +/-.

The point I was making is that your sub as well as the JL Audio Fathom I use both have a phase adjustment on them. It is not the same thing as wiring them +/-.

The process JL Audio suggests only TEMPORARILY wires them out of phase because it is easier to find a null or low point than it is a maximum. By finding the null, you will have put the wave fronts in alignment from the sub and your main speaker when you reverse (correct) the wiring on your main speaker.

[Charles]

Originally Posted by crwilli

I think you misunderstood my comments. I fully agree all your speakers should be wired in phase with each via +/-.

The point I was making is that your sub as well as the JL Audio Fathom I use both have a phase adjustment on them. It is not the same thing as wiring them +/-.

The process JL Audio suggests only TEMPORARILY wires them out of phase because it is easier to find a null or low point than it is a maximum. By finding the null, you will have put the wave fronts in alignment from the sub and your main speaker when you reverse (correct) the wiring on your main speaker.

crwilli, I believe setting the phase control to 180 degrees is identical to switching the spade lugs. It is the same thing. Since my XVX and Thor are both made by Wilson, unless a mistake is made (like with my Maxx3's), both the Thor and XVX will be in phase at setting 0 degrees on the crossover. This ensures maximum coupling of the Thor woofers with the XVX woofers, independent of positioning/placement. As the phase is rotated to 180 degrees there was in my system a marked effect on the 40 Hz note but no effect on the rest of the range. This was Greg Weaver's insight/tip.

If you are using a JL sub you must first determine if at phase 0 degrees the sub is in phase with the mains. It should be either 100% in phase or 100% out of phase. If the latter adjust the spade lugs on the JL to ensure the JL is in phase with the mains. Then you can experiment as I have or however you want to. But you must begin in phase. I think first you try to position the sub(s) for best bass. Then experiment with the phase. My Thor is fixed relative to my XVX. It is in the same plane and equidistant between my XVX. It really works well in my room but I always had this peak which I eliminated by setting the phase to 90 degrees. I would challenge anyone to hear on most recordings that I even have a subwoofer.

Yet, when you turn the Thor off, there is a distinct loss of sound quality manifested as more sharpness or edge in the mid but absolutely no change in the bass whatsoever. You would never notice this unless you could A/B it because the XVX mid is so smooth to begin with. The human ear is remarkably sensitive to some forms of distortion. I can hear any equalizer or dsp and without doubt a sub like the Thor operating at .012 watts affects the mid of the XVX.

That's the way I understand it for now.

Best

Charles

[crwilli]

Originally Posted by Charles

crwilli, I believe setting the phase control to 180 degrees is identical to switching the spade lugs. It is the same thing. Since my XVX and Thor are both made by Wilson, unless a mistake is made (like with my Maxx3's), both the Thor and XVX will be in phase at setting 0 degrees on the crossover. This ensures maximum coupling of the Thor woofers with the XVX woofers, independent of positioning/placement. As the phase is rotated to 180 degrees there was in my system a marked effect on the 40 Hz note but no effect on the rest of the range. This was Greg Weaver's insight/tip.

If you are using a JL sub you must first determine if at phase 0 degrees the sub is in phase with the mains. It should be either 100% in phase or 100% out of phase. If the latter adjust the spade lugs on the JL to ensure the JL is in phase with the mains. Then you can experiment as I have or however you want to. But you must begin in phase. I think first you try to position the sub(s) for best bass. Then experiment with the phase. My Thor is fixed relative to my XVX. It is in the same plane and equidistant between my XVX. It really works well in my room but I always had this peak which I eliminated by setting the phase to 90 degrees. I would challenge anyone to hear on most recordings that I even have a subwoofer.

Yet, when you turn the Thor off, there is a distinct loss of sound quality manifested as more sharpness or edge in the mid but absolutely no change in the bass whatsoever. You would never notice this unless you could A/B it because the XVX mid is so smooth to begin with. The human ear is remarkably sensitive to some forms of distortion. I can hear any equalizer or dsp and without doubt a sub like the Thor operating at .012 watts affects the mid of the XVX.

That's the way I understand it for now.

Best

Charles

So I guess your Phase adjustment is in steps? 0, 90, 180, etc?

The JL Audio subs offer a continuously variable phase control from 0-270.

Anyway, I am glad you have it nailed.