Speaker Possibilities

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Originally Posted by Jester

I can relate to your predicament after retiring a much loved pair of speakers due to financial constraints, and with that rekindled my earlier speaker building efforts in a part cost saving part " best sound for the money" adventure, a little while later feeling happy with my creations I returned to listening to speaker demo's with friends, doing the rounds of Hifi shows etc, mainly to gauge how I was doing against the current fare on offer,
Then came the big Hifi show with gear running from a few hundred dollars to more than my house is worth, and in the scheme of things my creations were mid range..... Not too bad I thought ..... And then it happened, just like meeting that special girl all those years ago .... I fell in love .... With a speaker this time ... Just in my price range if I didn't eat for a year or so, but there it was,
Clincher came 6 months later when a local dealer had them for 30% off retail and a deal was done! being as close or closer than yourself to retirement it could be " till death us do part" too .... Lol
Maybe instead of looking at suitable replacements on size, or reviews, warranty etc just put yourself out there and listen to as much as you are able,
Who knows, you may just fall in love too.....

It would probably help if I don't hang around the forum too much (!) or obsess over manuals I downloaded as part of my research.

I have identified the Bryston Model T tentatively as the one to move to if I choose to replace the Mirages. I've seen only the glowing reports from almost everywhere, AA included, and the Model T would seem to be ideal for my tastes. But I would want to audition them if things get past the "exploration" point, despite the glowing reviews. And there is the Mirage OMD-28, an omnipolar speaker (the M-3si is bipolar); less money than the Brystons and a more comfortable form factor (though shorter than I'd like). They have the same frequency response range as well, though I'm sure they'd sound different than the Brystons. I would expect they'd have some of the same sound characteristics as my M-3sis do.

Going on auditions would be dangerous, as I might hear something, as you suggest, that would push me to buy now, not having decided the value of doing so or (let's be real) whether my wallet is ready. Maybe just play more music, pay a little more attention to what I have, and let the answer come to me that way. Besides, It's not guaranteed I won't consider a preamp move, and that would take precedence if I choose to make a change there.

[chops-tube]

Originally Posted by prepress

I have just come back from the commencement service of the New York Theological Seminary, held at Riverside Church in Manhattan. One of my former Sunday school students invited me to come; she received her MA in Pastoral Care and Counseling, a nice achievement. There was also one other person from my church who received this degree, whom I don't know that well and didn't know was a seminary student. The ceremony began on time and ended a bit earlier than I expected, but it was still a 1:45 affair.

A major highlight was the church organ. I didn't actually see it because of where I sat, only from behind, but it looked and sounded like a monster (in a good sense). It was told me that it has four rows of foot pedals. The sound was clean, clear, warm, smooth, any audiophile jargon you want to use. Bravo to the organist (Christopher Johnson), and the church's sound system and acoustics. My mother, who played organ and sometimes piano for the senior choir at church, would have liked the music greatly. Few things stir my spirit like the sound of a major-class organ playing classic hymns. I stuck around until the postlude was finished, even though the ceremony was over.

Inspired by what I was hearing, I had a real urge to come home and play some organ music. I haven't played any in a while, and have yet to on my stereo as constituted currently. The thought occurred that if the sound isn't satisfying, it could nudge me onto the path of a speaker replacement—even though my Mirages are working and sounding fine. The lowest organ notes (20Hz, I believe) are beyond them, but again, as long as things are satisfying replacing speakers will be put off for a while longer. This is a test I plan to do, but not now; I need to go to the gym and then run a couple of errands. I hope to get to it while the glow of that organ is with me; it'll probably wear off in a couple of days.

5/18: The organ music I played last night and today was gorgeous. the Mirages are safe for a while longer.

A little bit on the Riverside organ.

The console has 11 banks of toe studs, but only one standard row of 32 pedals. To this day, I have yet to see any organ console with more than one row of pedals.

The organ itself is an Aeolian-Skinner, which are known for having a full, warm, lush sound. It consists of 204 ranks and is the 2nd largest pipe organ in New York. The largest pipes used, and there are many, are 32' in length. Some are open, some are stopped. The open 32' pipes will hit 16Hz, the stopped 32' pipes will hit 8Hz. And if the stopped 32's are played together in fifths which is referred to as a Resultant, will hit 4Hz!

Your Mirage M-3sia and my NHT 2.9s are very close compared to age and specs, though mine might reach a bit lower. However, both would have a very hard time coping with the lowest octave of this organ. I have several recordings of this organ, one of which I'm listening to right now. My father has had the luxury of not only hearing this organ in person, but also working on it!

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Originally Posted by chops-tube

A little bit on the Riverside organ.

The console has 11 banks of toe studs, but only one standard row of 32 pedals. To this day, I have yet to see any organ console with more than one row of pedals.

The organ itself is an Aeolian-Skinner, which are known for having a full, warm, lush sound. It consists of 204 ranks and is the 2nd largest pipe organ in New York. The largest pipes used, and there are many, are 32' in length. Some are open, some are stopped. The open 32' pipes will hit 16Hz, the stopped 32' pipes will hit 8Hz. And if the stopped 32's are played together in fifths which is referred to as a Resultant, will hit 4Hz!

Your Mirage M-3sia and my NHT 2.9s are very close compared to age and specs, though mine might reach a bit lower. However, both would have a very hard time coping with the lowest octave of this organ. I have several recordings of this organ, one of which I'm listening to right now. My father has had the luxury of not only hearing this organ in person, but also working on it!

It looks as though it's smiling.

That's good info on the organ. And your description of the sound matches what I heard. I can believe some of the pipes are as big as you say; they certainly looked tall. And it's a good thing Manhattan is built on bedrock. FOUR Hz!

Our speakers are pretty similar. Your 2.9s do go deeper; they have a range of 26Hz–26KHz. The M-3si is 30Hz–30KHz (24Hz in an anechoic chamber, which I don't have). Both have a nominal impedance of 6 ohms. The Mirages are heavier though, 135 lbs each. One of the things I think about is whether I can handle a big speaker later on, and should I make weight a practical consideration in the process. When I'm older, I may not be able to move, let alone lift, my MC501s. Should I replace them with something lighter? I haven't thought about that too much.

As far as the philosophical question at hand, it remains unsettled; I think if a hard, practical reason for speaker change emerges I will go forward ASAP. But there are more speakers out there to consider and research (I seem to have no cutoff point here). There are the new Def Tech Mythos ST-L (going down to 14Hz!) and Salk Soundscape 8 floorstanders. Establishing whether there's a place to go hear any of these is another matter. I'm not enough of a die-hard to travel too far for auditions, so there needs to be a NY area dealer. Two potential strikes against the Mythos are bass that low in a 1BR apartment, and whether or not I can drive them with my amps without the powered built-in subs; the extra plugs might be problematic.

Another question that has emerged is how much of a difference would 5Hz deeper make, at least in theory. My uneducated guess is that the lower frequencies would be tighter, but maybe there's more than that. Something else to study.

[chops-tube]

Originally Posted by prepress

It looks as though it's smiling.

That's good info on the organ. And your description of the sound matches what I heard. I can believe some of the pipes are as big as you say; they certainly looked tall. And it's a good thing Manhattan is built on bedrock. FOUR Hz!

Our speakers are pretty similar. Your 2.9s do go deeper; they have a range of 26Hz–26KHz. The M-3si is 30Hz–30KHz (24Hz in an anechoic chamber, which I don't have). Both have a nominal impedance of 6 ohms. The Mirages are heavier though, 135 lbs each. One of the things I think about is whether I can handle a big speaker later on, and should I make weight a practical consideration in the process. When I'm older, I may not be able to move, let alone lift, my MC501s. Should I replace them with something lighter? I haven't thought about that too much.

As far as the philosophical question at hand, it remains unsettled; I think if a hard, practical reason for speaker change emerges I will go forward ASAP. But there are more speakers out there to consider and research (I seem to have no cutoff point here). There are the new Def Tech Mythos ST-L (going down to 14Hz!) and Salk Soundscape 8 floorstanders. Establishing whether there's a place to go hear any of these is another matter. I'm not enough of a die-hard to travel too far for auditions, so there needs to be a NY area dealer. Two potential strikes against the Mythos are bass that low in a 1BR apartment, and whether or not I can drive them with my amps without the powered built-in subs; the extra plugs might be problematic.

Another question that has emerged is how much of a difference would 5Hz deeper make, at least in theory. My uneducated guess is that the lower frequencies would be tighter, but maybe there's more than that. Something else to study.

The mighty pipe organ... It's a wonderful thing.

As for speakers, I've had Def Techs in the past, the BP10B and BP2000. Both good sounding speakers with excellent bass extension. The BP10Bs being a real shocker because I wasn't expecting that kind of bass output out of two 6" drivers. The bipolar sound is fantastic (as you well know) and they performed pretty good with movies. That being said however, they seemed to lack any kind of dynamics when it came to listening to music. Whether it be rock, orchestral or pipe organ, they always gave me the impression of having a compressor somewhere in the signal chain. This holds true for even the BP2000s with their built-in, powered 15" sub. That was the main reason I got rid of them over a short period of time. That and the fact they seemed to have a slightly bloated lower midrange. This added heaviness seemed to "slow" them down and add too much weight to vocals, both male and female. Kind of makes you feel like they are tuned more for movies than they are music. They never had that lively "snap" with music.

The amps that I had and tried back then with both Def Techs included an Aragon 2004 MkII, a Carver TFM-35x, two Carver M-400t bridged mono, an Adcom GFA-555 MkII, and a McIntosh MC-250, two MC-2100 bridged mono and an MC-7200. So as you can see, I certainly wasn't starving these speakers with most of these amps. Believe it or not, the two best sounding amps out of that group were also the lowest powered amps, the 2004 MkII and MC-250. They just didn't have the grunt to push the speakers very far.

Now I'm not saying Def Techs are still voiced this way as I have not heard any of their new gear. I also don't know how they do with dynamics. I hope they've improved.

Honestly, only judging from my past experiences, I would say that moving from your current speakers to the Def Techs would actually be a downgrade more than anything else. I know that I'm 200% happier with my old 2.9s than I ever would have been with the Def Techs.


As for the Salk SoundScape 8s, their specs look great as do the speakers themselves. Other than that, I don't know anything about them. I've read reviews here and there about them over the years and they always review well. I don't know how they would compared to your Mirages though.


I've come to the conclusion that my NHT 2.9s do so much well that it would cost a LOT of pretty pennies to to make me happy with an upgrade. It's probably the same thing with you and your speakers.

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Originally Posted by chops-tube

The mighty pipe organ... It's a wonderful thing.

As for speakers, I've had Def Techs in the past, the BP10B and BP2000. Both good sounding speakers with excellent bass extension. The BP10Bs being a real shocker because I wasn't expecting that kind of bass output out of two 6" drivers. The bipolar sound is fantastic (as you well know) and they performed pretty good with movies. That being said however, they seemed to lack any kind of dynamics when it came to listening to music. Whether it be rock, orchestral or pipe organ, they always gave me the impression of having a compressor somewhere in the signal chain. This holds true for even the BP2000s with their built-in, powered 15" sub. That was the main reason I got rid of them over a short period of time. That and the fact they seemed to have a slightly bloated lower midrange. This added heaviness seemed to "slow" them down and add too much weight to vocals, both male and female. Kind of makes you feel like they are tuned more for movies than they are music. They never had that lively "snap" with music.

The amps that I had and tried back then with both Def Techs included an Aragon 2004 MkII, a Carver TFM-35x, two Carver M-400t bridged mono, an Adcom GFA-555 MkII, and a McIntosh MC-250, two MC-2100 bridged mono and an MC-7200. So as you can see, I certainly wasn't starving these speakers with most of these amps. Believe it or not, the two best sounding amps out of that group were also the lowest powered amps, the 2004 MkII and MC-250. They just didn't have the grunt to push the speakers very far.

Now I'm not saying Def Techs are still voiced this way as I have not heard any of their new gear. I also don't know how they do with dynamics. I hope they've improved.

Honestly, only judging from my past experiences, I would say that moving from your current speakers to the Def Techs would actually be a downgrade more than anything else. I know that I'm 200% happier with my old 2.9s than I ever would have been with the Def Techs.


As for the Salk SoundScape 8s, their specs look great as do the speakers themselves. Other than that, I don't know anything about them. I've read reviews here and there about them over the years and they always review well. I don't know how they would compared to your Mirages though.


I've come to the conclusion that my NHT 2.9s do so much well that it would cost a LOT of pretty pennies to to make me happy with an upgrade. It's probably the same thing with you and your speakers.

I sent Def Tech an e-mail. We'll see what they say. The Mythos line isn't bipolar; they have a direct radiation pattern and what little I've read so far suggests they're good with music as well as movies. The latest Sound & Vision has a review, plus a comment or two on Def Tech's website by a tech suggests a tighter, more focused image than the bipolar line. The retrieval of low-level detail is better as a result.

The new Mythos' price and form factor are what got my attention. But I'm not a fan of any speaker I'd have to plug in, generally. That's why the new Golden Ear Triton One missed the cut. But the ST-L recommended power is 20–350W. It would seem the 501s should have no problem if that rating includes the subs not being plugged in. Another tech comment in reply to a question said that one customer's MC402 wouldn't have any trouble with them, also encouraging. But I'll still wait for a reply to my e-mail.

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UPDATE: I received an e-mail from Def Tech today, and the reply says that I would need to plug them in. Not ideal.

There is also the Golden Ear Triton One, which gets a review in the next issue of The Absolute Sound. They, too, must be plugged in, which I don't care for, but preliminary reviews are positive all around, so I'll read that with interest. And given their construction, it'll be easy to use an aftermarket PC if one wants; the Mythos plug is underneath, a bit more trouble to get to and potentially difficult for the larger IEC-head aftermarket cords out there.

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I attended the NY Audio show a couple of weeks ago, my first trip to such an event, and it was an interesting time. I went two of the three days. I had nice exchanges with Bill Dudleston (Legacy), Mat Weisfeld (VPI) and the guys from Audio Classics.

The conversation with Mr. Dudleston calmed some of my fears about the Legacy Focus SE, enough that I am reconsidering them, despite the (for me) high price tag. I heard the Aeris, which I liked but don't have room for, can't afford, and would have to plug in (I'm not crazy about doing that). The Focus SE was in the Audio Classics room, and the preamp in that system was a C2300, so a bit of familiarity there; a MCD500 was the CD player. Once the tax and delivery factor in I probably can't afford the Focus SE either, but who knows whether I might somehow swing them. The Bryston Model T is still the frontrunner with the Golden Ear Triton Ones on the periphery (they'd have to plug in too, plus I'm not crazy about the look).

There are two factors which might influence me in considering potential replacement of my Mirages. The first wasn't much of an issue before, but I'm more aware of it lately, that the bass drops off noticeably when I stand up as opposed to when I'm seated. I think it's the speaker, though I wouldn't swear to it (I mentioned this to Mr. Dudleston, who offered that the Focus is designed, to some extent, with such things in mind). The second factor is we just received a modest raise at work, retroactive to January 2013, and there's supposed to be a separate check for the retroactive difference coming separately, so that could help if I go ahead and get new speakers.

But the Mirages still sound good, and are working fine. I begin to think all this angst is from curiosity to try something new versus common sense and practical consideration, ultimately.

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Here's a thought. Given my recent experience at the NY Audio Show, I have begun to consider the Legacy Focus SE speakers (again) as potential replacements for my Mirages, should I decide on doing that next year. The Legacys join the Bryston Model T on the list, for a grand total of two. Even though the Golden Ear Triton Ones are less money and I've read good things about them (Sound & Vision and TAS gave very positive reviews), I'm still leery of speakers that need to be plugged in.

Most recorded music does't go as low in the bass as any of these speakers, so maybe that aspect of the question is a wash, but I'd think the lower a speaker goes, the more dynamic potential. I'm not reproducing thunderstorms here, but maybe some low organ now and then, or Fanfare for the Common Man on repeat is possible. Maybe I'm playing with fire, but I'm exploring both Legacys and Brystons a bit more willfully.

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This is an issue all of a sudden.

When I stand up, bass drops off. It hasn't ben an issue for over 21 years; but now I notice it. James Tanner suggests this is a room node. Placement for speakers is limited. I can play with toe-in and could move them back some. I'll have to decide first whether the drop-off bothers me, and if so then how to handle things.

[capt.chaos]

If you are considering Legacy speakers I would also look at PBN Montana speakers.