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  #251  
Old 07-21-2019, 04:51 AM
Charles Charles is online now
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Last edited by Charles; 07-21-2019 at 11:19 AM. Reason: Removed because of computer glitch
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  #252  
Old 07-21-2019, 04:51 AM
Charles Charles is online now
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Originally Posted by metaphacts View Post
Thank you for being such a passionate Wilson fan Charles!

Wilson does have an advantage with our subs because we design them to work specifically with Wilson speakers, even specific models of Wilson speakers. It's nice if they work with others manufacturers' speakers, but it's not a concern if they don't.

The lack of a HP is SOP for Wilson but also for proper subwoofer integration in most two channel systems. It is proper room positioning of the mains that insures the smooth rolloff necessary. They don't have to be perfect but they do need to be perfectly placed. Without that, it really doesn't matter what you do with the sub.

For the record, I don't have to speculate about the Fenice, the SE17, Aida, or Aida 2. I have experience with all of them. I see and hear nothing in their operation that would preclude their use with properly aligned subs. Finding the right ones may be the trick, but they will (have) indeed work(ed).
I think you have made my point: I'm not sure such subs exist. I made this point to a good friend of mine. I have noted that the very large European super speakers and there are many of them come with built in subs. Wilson builds their own subs specifically for their large speakers in recognition of the point you have made. If you note I am not aware of generic subs like the Q15 or Q18 or the new Yg subs. I would be hesitant to use subs like these with other than their speakers. I don't have the luxury like you do but I can see how SF and the other manufactures have their big speaker demonstrated at the big European shows and it is without subs.

There are many advantages to Wilson's understanding of bass and it comes from Dave Wilson's long standing belief in the sub woofer. So he made his own for his own speakers and vice versa. I can tell you that in my meager room I can put on the Wilson sub disc and I have a little dip at 50 and a little peak at 40 and the response extends subjectively smoothly down to 20 and actually well below 20. The thing I like the best is the strong smooth upper bass which has nothing to do with my sub but with the Alexx. There is also zero worry about over loading the Alexx with a heavy low bass transient. It can't be done. Therefore, the Alexx is the perfect speaker for a sub but at the same time has a very adequate but not excessive 20-50 response range on it's own.

I'm afraid that the generic sub may not exist that would augment the Se17 (Fenice) successfully or the Aida 2. SF would have to engineer them and they haven't.

I could however argue that a speaker like the Se17 or Aida 2 with their built in subs can better integrate the bass range than with separate subs. A tri-amped Se17/Accuphase system (no separate sub) I am sure would have incredible bass and need no sub. It could be better integrated than the Wilson approach to the ultimate system. Ivan likes the SF sound. My opinion is that an ultimate SF system is competitive with the ultimate Wilson and then it is a matter of taste.

Last edited by Charles; 07-21-2019 at 05:22 AM.
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  #253  
Old 07-21-2019, 07:05 AM
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SCAudiophile SCAudiophile is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles View Post
I think you have made my point: I'm not sure such subs exist. I made this point to a good friend of mine. I have noted that the very large European super speakers and there are many of them come with built in subs. Wilson builds their own subs specifically for their large speakers in recognition of the point you have made. If you note I am not aware of generic subs like the Q15 or Q18 or the new Yg subs. I would be hesitant to use subs like these with other than their speakers. I don't have the luxury like you do but I can see how SF and the other manufactures have their big speaker demonstrated at the big European shows and it is without subs.

There are many advantages to Wilson's understanding of bass and it comes from Dave Wilson's long standing belief in the sub woofer. So he made his own for his own speakers and vice versa. I can tell you that in my meager room I can put on the Wilson sub disc and I have a little dip at 50 and a little peak at 40 and the response extends subjectively smoothly down to 20 and actually well below 20. The thing I like the best is the strong smooth upper bass which has nothing to do with my sub but with the Alexx. There is also zero worry about over loading the Alexx with a heavy low bass transient. It can't be done. Therefore, the Alexx is the perfect speaker for a sub but at the same time has a very adequate but not excessive 20-50 response range on it's own.

I'm afraid that the generic sub may not exist that would augment the Se17 (Fenice) successfully or the Aida 2. SF would have to engineer them and they haven't.

I could however argue that a speaker like the Se17 or Aida 2 with their built in subs can better integrate the bass range than with separate subs. A tri-amped Se17/Accuphase system (no separate sub) I am sure would have incredible bass and need no sub. It could be better integrated than the Wilson approach to the ultimate system. Ivan likes the SF sound. My opinion is that an ultimate SF system is competitive with the ultimate Wilson and then it is a matter of taste.
What I think is needed in these cases is a sub that can be actively crossed over and tuned for 2ch and/or HT if you will to compliment the speakers you are referring to an any others like this. 2 such subs exist;

The first fits the bill down to 16Hz when 2 are paired with their Wavelet RoomEQ active crossover

https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...gacy-subwoofer

https://legacyaudio.com/products/view/foundation/

It also manual taper and blend controls on the back for adjustment by ear and meter that can be used in parallel with the processor (or no processor if you choose).

Specs are conservative, I have not found bass that this cannot reproduce.

I use 2 of these with my setup and Wavelet. The output is prodigious, musical and the fastest bass I have heard. The Wavelet actively compensates for every nuance of room amd speakers in both frequency and time domains.

The second can handle the biggest and most complicated of jobs with its active, parametric-EQ capable XILICA pro crossover processor down to 12Hz;

https://legacyaudio.com/products/vie...-xd-subwoofer/

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/art...-xd-subwoofer/

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/art...-xd-subwoofer/

These are massive, musical and tuned specifically with a pro-grade crossover for seemingly any speaker's response curve via very sophisticated parametric-EQ capabilities the user customizes (Goliath) or active target function determinaton and optimization plus RoomEQ (Foundation).

AFAIK, other than vendor-specific subs that match certain models, these are the only ones with the processing and flexibility to solve the problems cited...
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  #254  
Old 08-06-2019, 04:15 PM
xv21 xv21 is offline
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Marten Coltrane:https://www.marten.se/products/coltrane/
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  #255  
Old 08-07-2019, 12:45 AM
phunge phunge is offline
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I would love to see a system built around the Focal Frande Utopia Evos



I have the Maestro Evos in my system, so I am obviously biased, but I think Focal has really nailed it with these fourth generation utopias.

There is a new wood finish that is supposed to be spectacular as well:
Quote:
Focal acquired an exceptional batch of French noyer that heralds from a one-hundred year old tree from the Ain region. Thanks to the unique skills of Focal’s cabinet-makers in the FEB workshop, this batch of wood is meticulously worked and treated with the utmost respect. Every piece is therefore unique and handmade. A guarantee of high quality.

Noyer Naturel and Noyer Foncé. This tawny yellow wood, veined with brown, has stunning nuances of colour. With its satin look, plentiful knots and a fine, irregular grain, this variety is extremely decorative.
The Noyer Naturel version matches elegantly with a light-coloured body, whilst the Noyer Foncé finish goes perfectly with an intense-coloured body, bringing even more elegance and warmth to your home decor. And to round off these noble materials and stunning combinations to perfection, the High Gloss varnish adds that final flourish.


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