Vinyl, I'm Trying Again, but....

[Still-One]

Originally Posted by gregswaim

Budget TT's = Pro-Ject
Mid-Fi TT's = Rega/Pro-Ject
Hi-Fi(Reference)TT's = Linn

Budget tonearms = Pro-Ject/Rega
Mid-Fi tonearms = Pro-Ject/Rega
Hi Fi tonearms(Reference) = Pro-Ject/Rega/Linn/SME

Budget Pickups = Grado(Moving Iron/MM)
Mid-Fi Pickups = Rega/Clearaudio/Linn(MM Only)
Hi-Fi (Reference) = Linn/Benz/Lyra/Dynavector(MC Only)

........just my opinion.

I have owned to LP12's. One in the mid 70's and another around the 2000. I actually stopped at the local Linn dealer Saturday but the LP12 guru ( he was supposedly the first guy in NA to implement all the latest updates to his table) was still on vacation. I think the Linn has priced the deck out of consideration for what I would use it for. I will talk to him when he gets back.

[jdandy]

Jim.......I agree with you. The Linn has a fine reputation as a suspended turntable, but not rated as the best. Linn's concept of milking their existing customer base with ever more expensive upgrades to the same old design year after year is not attractive to me. The concept is getting a bit long in the tooth.

A new LP12 outfitted with the Full Monty will get into your pocket about $14,000, without a cartridge, and it is still just a Linn LP12 suspended belt drive turntable. Were I interested in spending $14K or more on a turntable, the LP12 would not even be on the list. Just my humble opinion.

[gregswaim]

Originally Posted by Stillone

I have owned to LP12's. One in the mid 70's and another around the 2000. I actually stopped at the local Linn dealer Saturday but the LP12 guru ( he was supposedly the first guy in NA to implement all the latest updates to his table) was still on vacation. I think the Linn has priced the deck out of consideration for what I would use it for. I will talk to him when he gets back.

On some things you're right. I plan on doing a A/B against my dealers table: His table is a fully tripped out LP12 SE that includes Ekos SE tonearm, new Radikal power supply,new Urika phono stage,Keel plate,Lyra Argo i MC(about $24K) vs my LP12 with Pro-Ject 9cc tonearm,Lyra Argo i,EAR 324 phono stage, latest Lingo power supply(about $12,500).
Honestly, my table sounds so damn good right now that I seriously doubt that adding the Keel plate($3300), Ekos SE tonearm($5000.00), & Radikal power supply(3995.00), will make a improvement worthy of the additional costs for those items as a added feature. I think that my new phono stage has a lot to do with it. There might be a improvement with those extra items but not a big enough of one. I'll do a A/B sometime this week and will post something on this.
This LP12 has improved fundamentally since the 70's - it's a lot better now. Even though the LP12 has a "Plain Jane appearance, it can still hold its own in the way of world class sound. If styling is more important for you, there's quite a few tables out there with lots of curb appeal but the sound isn't quite happening though.

You may want to do what I did: Get a LP12 Majik($3750) & add a power supply(Lingo-$1800.00 or Radikal-$3995.00),then a decent MC pickup- I really like my Lyra Argo i MC($1675.00). The Pro-Ject 9cc tonearm that comes with the Majik is very good and very underrated in my opinion. Your Linn dealer will not doubt try and get you to buy the Akito tonearm($1350.00) as a upgrade, but I personally feel that the Pro-Ject 9cc is as good or better than the Linn Akito.

[jdandy]

Originally Posted by gregswaim

On some things you're right. I plan on doing a A/B against my dealers table: His table is a fully tripped out LP12 SE that includes Ekos SE tonearm, new Radikal power supply,new Urika phono stage,Keel plate,Lyra Argo i MC(about $24K) vs my LP12 with Pro-Ject 9cc tonearm,Lyra Argo i,EAR 324 phono stage, latest Lingo power supply(about $12,500).
Honestly, my table sounds so damn good right now that I seriously doubt that adding the Keel plate($3300), Ekos SE tonearm($5000.00), & Radikal power supply(3995.00), will make a improvement worthy of the additional costs for those items as a added feature. I think that my new phono stage has a lot to do with it. There might be a improvement with those extra items but not a big enough of one. I'll do a A/B sometime this week and will post something on this.
This LP12 has improved fundamentally since the 70's - it's a lot better now. Even though the LP12 has a "Plain Jane appearance, it can still hold its own in the way of world class sound. If styling is more important for you, there's quite a few tables out there with lots of curb appeal but the sound isn't quite happening though.

Greg.......About $12,500 to upgrade a 1970's design turntable? Geez, and then what? Next year along comes the latest Linn Super Linnova Carbon Fiber and 24 Karat Gold Metal Flake Plinth, said to further enhance detail and resolution to a supreme level, while at the same time using the high density of gold metal flake and the extreme strength of carbon fiber to dramatically reduce noise from external vibrations. All LP12 owners will surely want this upgrade, and at only $8,900.00 who can resist the sonic improvements now available exclusively from your authorized Linn dealer. Hurry. The demand will be great for this revolutionary advancement that delivers the absolute utmost in vinyl playback quality, and created exclusively for Linn LP12 aficionados.

You know I am having fun, but there is a ring of truth. I have high regards for the Linn LP12. I have listened to many pleasurable hours of vinyl spun on a Linn turntable. I am sure your LP12 sounds spectacular with the new Lyra Argo cartridge and EAR 324 phono stage. What's not to like. I just feel Linn is milking their loyal customer base for all they are worth. If it is such a classic, why does if have to be altered 30 times as the years roll by? Upgrades are more profitable to produce than a brand new state of the art design, would be my answer.

On a happier note, I figured you were running low, so I ordered you another case of your favorite beverage. Enjoy.

[gregswaim]

Originally Posted by jdandy

Greg.......About $12,500 to upgrade a 1970's design turntable? Geez, and then what? Next year along comes the latest Linn Super Linnova Carbon Fiber and 24 Karat Gold Metal Flake Plinth, said to further enhance detail and resolution to a supreme level, while at the same time using the high density of gold metal flake and the extreme strength of carbon fiber to dramatically reduce noise from external vibrations. All LP12 owners will surely want this upgrade, and at only $8,900.00 who can resist the sonic improvements now available exclusively from your authorized Linn dealer. Hurry. The demand will be great for this revolutionary advancement that delivers the absolute utmost in vinyl playback quality, and created exclusively for Linn LP12 aficionados.

You know I am having fun, but there is a ring of truth. I have high regards for the Linn LP12. I have listened to many pleasurable hours of vinyl spun on a Linn turntable. I am sure your LP12 sounds spectacular with the new Lyra Argo cartridge and EAR 324 phono stage. What's not to like. I just feel Linn is milking their loyal customer base for all they are worth. If it is such a classic, why does if have to be altered 30 times as the years roll by? Upgrades are more profitable to produce than a brand new state of the art design.

On a happier note, I figured you were running low, so I ordered you another case of your favorite beverage. Enjoy.

Well some of your comments are good points others are not so.
The LP12 has been around since 1972 and many changes have taken place.
The latest version has the Cirkus bearing which is a major improvement by itself.
The Lingo power supply that I have was improved in 2002 vs the older one from 1996- Jim probably had that one. Power supplies really matter for top notch sound. Additionally, the LP12 is arguably the most upgradeable table in the world right now, which means that you don't have to start over every few years when brand X comes out with their latest and greatest. Linn offers upgrades for those that feel there's a noticeable improvement in sound, unfortunately not all of their upgrades are worthy of purchase because the pricing is too high for a small improvement. Everyone will have to make their own decisions as to what's right for them.

[jdandy]

This may or may not be a complete list of Linn upgrades to the LP12 since its introduction in 1972, but it is close.

1972, LP12 turntable introduced.
1974, Main bearing liner changed. Sub-chassis strengthened by addition of strap, spot welded in place. Motor control circuit changed from terminal strip to small PCB. Mains switch changed from two buttons to single with mains neon.
1978, Top plate modified adding two holes for 6 x 0.5 self tappers into wood block.
1979, Lid prop removed, hinges changed to spring loading.
1981, February. Nirvana mechanical components.
1982, May. Valhalla crystal-driven electronic power supply made standard. 1984, Enlarged plinth corner bracing.
1984, June. Sub-chassis strengthening bar epoxy glued instead of spot welded.
1985, August. Cap head screws on bearing housing.
1985, September. Diode modification to Valhalla board
1985, December. Strengthening blocks on corners of plinth.
1986, May. New clear lid.
1986, Suspension springs improved.
1987, March. New bearing housing, New Formica and MDF armboard. [69,161]
1987, April. New springs.
1987, Bearing improved, better lining material and tighter tolerances. Change to black oil. Suspension springs ground to improved tolerance. Arm board composition improved.
1989, Motor thrust pad changed. Valhalla surge guard modification. PCB mains lead (UK).
1989, New MDF armboard, laminated top and bottom.
1989, Harder suspension grommets fitted.
1990, External Lingo high precision, direct coupled power supply available as add-on.
1991, motor thrust pad cap added to Lingo models.
1991, Valhalla board with 45RPM capability added.
1991, motor thrust pad cap added to Valhalla models.
1991, Introduction of LP12 Basik, a stripped down version of the turntable. 1991, Solid base board replaces hardboard.
1991, Trampolin base board with isolating feet available as an option 1992, Improved top plate fixing.
1993, Cirkus upgrade (larger and better machined inner platter and new bearing, new springs, armboard, belt) fitted as standard.
2000, 4th bolt added near motor on top plate, fitted as standard. Required extra cross beam on plinth.
2001, New motor used (first new motor since original 1972).
2002, Maple plinth introduced adding to existing black, walnut, rosewood and afromosia options.
2006, Keel upgrade to the LP12 is a replacement subchassis, machined from solid aluminium.
2006, Trampolin Mark 2, an aluminum baseboard replacement for the masonite, or MDF baseboards.

This represents 29 new opportunities for Linn to sell upgrades to the same LP12 owner. And lets not forget the limited edition commemorative LP12 that was created to mark the 25th anniversary of the LP12 in 1997. Among other features, it bears a plaque etched with the signature of Linn's owner Ivor Tiefenbrun. Of course, it needed to be upgraded, too, from year 2000 to present........and beyond, I'm sure.

[1KW]

Turntables having both a mechanical and electronic component to them lend themselves to tweaking probably more than any other hi fi piece. I see Dan's point about tricking out a LP12 as I have seen others spend thousands doing the same thing to the Technics SL1200 which starts out as a very decent sounding table for its price point . I also can see that having a path to upgrade ones tt is a attractive alternative with certain limitations. This is a fun hobby and everyone has different ideas about value. Personally while listening to music is 75 % of the fun for me, tweeking and upgrading is the other 25 % which means I am not married to my gear and over time plan on changing some it and resale value becomes a consideration. The bottom line for me is taking a $3700 tt and adding 3 times or more dollars is not a wise way to upgrade as you will never come close to getting it back when you sell it to buy something else. If you plan on keeping your TT for 10 years then it does not matter. In Jim's case he is not sure about listening to lp's so I recommend he start out like I did with a minimal investment and if he really likes it then do your homework and get something else. Here is a suggestion, read this http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/te...l1200_2_e.html very solid inexpensive table and put on a decent cartridge . Take a look at the KAB version.

[gregswaim]

Originally Posted by jdandy

This may or may not be a complete list of Linn upgrades to the LP12 since its introduction in 1972, but it is close.

1972, LP12 turntable introduced.
1974, Main bearing liner changed. Sub-chassis strengthened by addition of strap, spot welded in place. Motor control circuit changed from terminal strip to small PCB. Mains switch changed from two buttons to single with mains neon.
1978, Top plate modified adding two holes for 6 x 0.5 self tappers into wood block.
1979, Lid prop removed, hinges changed to spring loading.
1981, February. Nirvana mechanical components.
1982, May. Valhalla crystal-driven electronic power supply made standard. 1984, Enlarged plinth corner bracing.
1984, June. Sub-chassis strengthening bar epoxy glued instead of spot welded.
1985, August. Cap head screws on bearing housing.
1985, September. Diode modification to Valhalla board
1985, December. Strengthening blocks on corners of plinth.
1986, May. New clear lid.
1986, Suspension springs improved.
1987, March. New bearing housing, New Formica and MDF armboard. [69,161]
1987, April. New springs.
1987, Bearing improved, better lining material and tighter tolerances. Change to black oil. Suspension springs ground to improved tolerance. Arm board composition improved.
1989, Motor thrust pad changed. Valhalla surge guard modification. PCB mains lead (UK).
1989, New MDF armboard, laminated top and bottom.
1989, Harder suspension grommets fitted.
1990, External Lingo high precision, direct coupled power supply available as add-on.
1991, motor thrust pad cap added to Lingo models.
1991, Valhalla board with 45RPM capability added.
1991, motor thrust pad cap added to Valhalla models.
1991, Introduction of LP12 Basik, a stripped down version of the turntable. 1991, Solid base board replaces hardboard.
1991, Trampolin base board with isolating feet available as an option 1992, Improved top plate fixing.
1993, Cirkus upgrade (larger and better machined inner platter and new bearing, new springs, armboard, belt) fitted as standard.
2000, 4th bolt added near motor on top plate, fitted as standard. Required extra cross beam on plinth.
2001, New motor used (first new motor since original 1972).
2002, Maple plinth introduced adding to existing black, walnut, rosewood and afromosia options.
2006, Keel upgrade to the LP12 is a replacement subchassis, machined from solid aluminium.
2006, Trampolin Mark 2, an aluminum baseboard replacement for the masonite, or MDF baseboards.

This represents 29 new opportunities for Linn to sell upgrades to the same LP12 owner. And lets not forget the limited edition commemorative LP12 that was created to mark the 25th anniversary of the LP12 in 1997. Among other features, it bears a plaque etched with the signature of Linn's owner Ivor Tiefenbrun. Of course, it needed to be upgraded, too, from year 2000 to present........and beyond, I'm sure.

After more than 30 years the Linn Sondek LP12 turntable remains the performance standard by which all others are judged.

[jdandy]

Originally Posted by gregswaim

After more than 30 years the Linn Sondek LP12 turntable remains the performance standard by which all others are judged.

WOW!

[Still-One]

Dan & Greg
I am not going to spend Linn or SAE type dollars for a table if I decide to get one at all. I will be taking this table back to the dealer on Wednesday and I am not sure if I will order one or not. I don't have a problem spending $2 or $3k for something I will only use occasionally but to spend from $5k to $15k I would rather spend that on a DAC or upgrade to the next level MBL's.

I like the idea of having a table but I am not sure how much use it will get.