To Sub or not to Sub

[gregswaim]

Originally Posted by Stillone

Greg
I have to disagree with you here. I think that the order is: 1) speakers 2) amp (and how it works with the speakers) 3) source 4) pre-amp. I think many people still believe Ivor Tiefenbrun of Linn in the '70's that source is King. I am not one of them.

That's ok to disagree Jim. Ivor's triad has worked flawlessly for me since 1983. It's helped me separate the junk from the jewels every time.

[Still-One]

Originally Posted by PHC1

Jim, that is the order I would have agreed with except when I came across the Ayre KX-R preamp, now I consider the preamp to be just as important as the speaker/amp synergy. The preamp can make or break the whole system since it can bottleneck the source upstream from it and not allow the amp/speakers to reproduce what's on the recording faithfully either.

Serge
That was a toss-up for me. Bottom line, if you do not like your speakers, you will not enjoy your system.

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by gregswaim

We hear things differently. The next time you go out for a audition for some component/speakers use a mass produced source component and run it through a reference preamp,amp,& speakers and you'll should hear a difference.
On the other hand, if you run a reference source through mass produced components and it will always sound better. A lot of speakers are,in my opinion, poorly made from the get go and make noise rather than music.
I'm not sure what kind of sound that you expect to hear from a digital source- for me it needs to be very analog and natural sounding. I've found only one brand that can accomplish this for me. If it weren't for this particular brand I'd still be using vinyl playback as a main source and have only one system rather than 2.

I didn't imply one should not be able to hear a difference between a $200 CDP and $20,000 CDP. What I am saying is, once you cross a certain threshold, say $5-6k for a digital source, for the most part, the lot's of extra money buys you very marginal increase in performance. Of course that "marginal" increase in performance is still important to many building a very serious system. I assume that is understood since this is a "high end" forum.

You know the components that come through my system are not exactly "mass produced". You also know that I audition gear very often and I am talking about stuff like Chord, DCS, Meridian, Krell, Ayre, MBL.. etc... Lot's of very accomplished gear these days, you've got to pay and pay to get some marginal difference with digital. "Very natural", extended but smooth and musical is the holy grail of digital and seems most manufacturers are heading that way. Take a look and listen to products from Ayre, EMM, Playback Designs, they all have similar characteristics that display those traits. Yes, I have heard the MCD500, it is not a bad CDP by any means but don't think there is nothing better but that better will cost you.

I'm sure you don't mean that "reference components" through a pair of Bose speakers will be the "mutt's nuts" either.

[US Blues]

I have Vandersteen 2ce's with the matching Vandersteen 2W subwoofer (got it for $500 used, it was $1500 new at the time ), sometimes the sub does not seem to be contributing much, but most often in my musical realms it is working to provide the foundation of sound.

[gregswaim]

Originally Posted by PHC1

I didn't imply one should not be able to hear a difference between a $200 CDP and $20,000 CDP. What I am saying is, once you cross a certain threshold, say $5-6k for a digital source, for the most part, the lot's of extra money buys you very marginal increase in performance. Of course that "marginal" increase in performance is still important to many building a very serious system. I assume that is understood since this is a "high end" forum.

You know the components that come through my system are not exactly "mass produced". You also know that I audition gear very often and I am talking about stuff like Chord, DCS, Meridian, Krell, Ayre, MBL.. etc... Lot's of very accomplished gear these days, you've got to pay and pay to get some marginal difference with digital. "Very natural", extended but smooth and musical is the holy grail of digital and seems most manufacturers are heading that way. Take a look and listen to products from Ayre, EMM, Playback Designs, they all have similar characteristics that display those traits. Yes, I have heard the MCD500, it is not a bad CDP by any means but don't think there is nothing better but that better will cost you.

I'm sure you don't mean that "reference components" through a pair of Bose speakers will be the "mutt's nuts" either.

Yes of course, sooner or later it becomes a point of diminishing returns. Is it worth it to upgrade to that next component for a additional $30k+ just to get that last ounce of detail? Only the person doing the audition can answer that question.
I've checked Arye already and it's not my cup of tea. Last time I looked at EMM it was so similar in sound to dCS that I couldn't tell the difference and the sound was not happening for me. Playback Designs is a new company and I've not yet had the opportunity to look at yet. I'll be on the look out for their stuff and give their components a listen when I have a chance.

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by Stillone

Dan and Serge
This is getting too technical for me, but I thought the second, third etc harmonics were always doubling of the fundamental tone or first harmonic. So even with Dan's example of the lowest piano key, the second harmonic would be a 56hz, then 112hz.

You lost me there, it doesn't change the fact that the fundamental frequencies are still at 32.7Hz on the lowest key of a standard 88 key piano or that 16.5Hz is the lowest frequency of a tuba, large pipe organ, Bosendorfer Grand Piano or 8Hz for organ or 4Hz for 64' subcontrabass clarinet...

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by gregswaim

Yes of course, sooner or later it becomes a point of diminishing returns. Is it worth it to upgrade to that next component for a additional $30k+ just to get that last ounce of detail? Only the person doing the audition can answer that question.
I've checked Arye already and it's not my cup of tea. Last time I looked at EMM it was so similar in sound to dCS that I couldn't tell the difference and the sound was not happening for me. Playback Designs is a new company and I've not yet had the opportunity to look at yet. I'll be on the look out for their stuff and give their components a listen when I have a chance.

It's good to audition different gear to get a frame of reference. In my own system the Ayre comfortably outperformed the MDA/MCD in both ends of frequency extension and having a naturally smooth sonic signature with its minimum phase filter that is similar and actually better than the Meridian 802.2 CDP while the MDA has a tendency to sugar coat everything with its smoothing filter. It's all in the listeners preference. I may step up to the new Playback Designs as a "last step" on the ladder of digital in my system, not that I think it is worth 2.5x the price of the superb Ayre CDP.

[Masterlu]

Go Serge!

[gregswaim]

I've auditioned so many components over the last 3 years that I'm getting burnt out. If something can catch my attention from the beginning rather than having to listen for hours on end for differences, if any, would be a plus.
Linn's Klimax DS processor did just that for me last year in November and it's the best sound that I've yet experienced to date from a source component. The price is $20k which is not a problem for me, the problem is having to store all of my music on a hard drive- I don't trust computers enough for that sort of thing. These type of processors are, in my opinion, going to be the next step for highend playback rather than disc spinners.

[jdandy]

Speaking of organs, the lowest note on a pipe organ is 16.4 Hz. Talk about feel it as much as hear it, it rattles your bones. The pipe for the low C note is 32 feet long.

I use to eat at a place called the Oregon Grinder Pizza, on SE 82nd, in Portland, Oregon. The entire place was constructed to house a wonderful pipe orgen. For the price of a great pizza and a pitcher of cold beer, you could enjoy a great dinner listening to this organ being played by some famous organ players. You were not listening to woofers, midrange drivers, and tweeters, you were listening to an awesome, real instrument being played live for the ear to soak up. The excitement was so much fun, and the sound was unbelievable. It was exactly what we as audiophile strive so hard to reproduce with our systems in our homes. In my opinion, there is no way the frequency range, the sound quality, the textures, and the impact of the dynamic range of an organ, like the one at the Organ Grinder, can be 100% faithfully reproduced on a sound system. Something like this has to be heard, felt, and experienced in the flesh to be fully appreciated.