P10 heat ??

[crwilli]

To stop hijacking another OP's thread, I am moving my questions on the heat generated by my P10...
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Sorry for the slight thread hijack.

My P10 gets warmer than the two MC2301s it drives. I find that interesting and wonder about the science of why. At a simple level, it is converting AC to DC and back to AC. Not sure why that is such an inefficient process to convert so much of that power to heat????

My reply to a post suggesting the reason was from my use of a tube amplifier whereas the other member's P10 stayed cool driving their SS amplifier.

...That doesn't make sense to me. Yes, the tubes create heat.

However, the P10, to my mind, doesn't see the tubes, it sees a current draw which I would think has more to do with the demand it sees than whether or not that demand is from a SS or a tube amplifier. Whatever current draw the P10 sees is being met inefficiently if it is also generating heat.

I am not an electrical but understand the fundamentals.

I will start another thread to discuss this further and cease my hijacking of the OP's question.

[tdelahanty]

The filaments in your amps draw the same current, regardless of the power required to drive speakers and trust me it is substantial !!! My levinson amp is 300w rms, when driven to ear splitting levels does not heat-up my P10. I would suggest two things, look at the waveform menu it will tell you how much current is being used and try a SS amp.
I would add one more thought, your tube amps simply draw way more current the inefficiency lies there.

[crwilli]

I will look at that tonight. No matter what, I barely have to heat my room in the winter! . I am having an AC 'sucker' vent installed this spring for the summer. It simply gets too hot in there with all three of them cooking.

[IM3CPO]

I have a P10 and use it to power an MC-402, C-50, and a DAC. I also have a PurePower 2000 on this same setup and have switched between the two doing various tests. Comparatively, the P10 puts out more heat in my room when its hooked up. I have a kill-a-watt meter around here somewhere. I will dig it up and see how much the P10 draws. As others have said, the P10 doesn't care whats hooked up to it. It only sees the current draw regardless of it being tubes or solid state.

[IM3CPO]

Found my kill-a-watt.. My P10 consumes 21W with *nothing* hooked up to it at all which is a decent amount. I then hooked up a known 14W load and my P10 consumption jumped to 40W. So it looks like the P10 is not very efficient..... Even with a modest load, the P10 took an additional 36% to do its work. I would assume the efficiency would be even worse with high current applications.

[jdandy]

Craig.......The P10 has its own internal amplifier that stays on 24/7 and disipates heat whether anything is connected or not. There are converter circuits in it, the voltage amplifier, and an inverter that turns the clean DC back to AC. All of those internal components have a heat signature. Then you add your amplifier load which cause the P10's amplifier to start working beyond just an idle. Up goes the dissipated heat. The efficiency of the P10 @ 1200VA resistive or reactive load is 85%. That means that at a minimum, 15% of the power drawn from the wall outlet becomes heat.

I measured my MC2301's with an amp meter and found each one draws approximately 1.8 amps (216 watts) at idle. With music playing at 3 watts average and peaks to 15 watts the amp meter showed a 2.2 amp load (264 watts) for a single amplifier. That is 528 watts load with both amplifiers playing music and 432 watts load with both amplifiers at idle.

The P10 continuous rated output is 1200VA (volt amps). At 85% efficiency that is approximately 1020 watts. This means your two amplifiers playing at 15 watt peaks will consume approximately 51% of the P10's continuous output capacity. Even at idle the two MC2301 amplifiers will consume 42% of the P10's continuous output capacity. Knowing these numbers makes it a easier to understand the heat issue. The P10's own power supply not only has to work to furnish voltage and current for the connected loads, it also has to produce voltage and current the P10's internal amplifier consumes performing its job. It is not surprising that your P10 is warm. It is working.

[crwilli]

Thank you!

THAT is the science I was looking for. Dan, you are such an asset. I really need to tip a glass with you sometime!
Craig

[tdelahanty]

I looked up the KT88 filament current which can be as high as 1.6a, the 2301 has eight output tubes, this doesnot include filament current from the low level front-end tubes. Using Dan's measurements 1.8a at idle is more than most typical SS amps playing music at average levels. Try the amps directly to a wall receptical and just run your front-end on the P10, I'm betting it will run much cooler.

[crwilli]

Originally Posted by tdelahanty

I looked up the KT88 filament current which can be as high as 1.6a, the 2301 has eight output tubes, this doesnot include filament current from the low level front-end tubes. Using Dan's measurements 1.8a at idle is more than most typical SS amps playing music at average levels. Try the amps directly to a wall receptical and just run your front-end on the P10, I'm betting it will run much cooler.

I am on that! Already planning it tonight!

[crwilli]

Originally Posted by crwilli

I am on that! Already planning it tonight!

Here is the P10 with the Amps and my entire front end connected playing Fourplay Chant at a PreAmp level of 38. Pretty loud - an above normal level for normal listening.
IMG_2238.JPG

Here is the P10 with the MC2301s disconnected and straight into their own 20 Amp lines. Only things connected are my front end. C2300 pre, Silenzio, G02, K03x, Sonos Connect and a W4S remedy and recovery.

IMG_2239.JPG

Not sure what that proves beyond the Amps draw lots of watts...

Thanks to all for helping me itch that itch.

Now... I thinking the system sounds better with the Amps straight into their own 20 amp lines... Geesh, audio paranoia!!!