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Ayre A new dimension of musical enjoyment

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  #71  
Old 04-23-2017, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by dinster View Post
well well....the honey moon is over, tried to connect the Ayre link today, and well it didn't work, the last amp in the chain was not responding to the preamp signals. i tried MXR KXR MXR it clearly states that it doesn't matter in which order as long as you daisy chain, and don't complete the circuit..... and that is when things went awry. My beautiful repaired amp now doesn't produce music....the relay does not click when going from standby (green) to on (blue) and there is no sound. Tried swapping inputs it is a power amp problem not a preamp problem.

I think I'm heading for a divorce. The Ayre link cannot be so problematic, meanwhile I'm kind of in a bad place now. waiting to hear from Ayre.....again.


Dinster

Super frustrating...I feel for you. I am not an expert but my suggestion is to first try to get sound going again so you can at least listen to music. I would unplug all Ayrelink connections for now. Then I would unplug amps and let them fully discharge. The light will turn violet and eventually go out. Then plug both back in and see if you can manually turn on each amp and get music. I hope that at least gets you music while this other issue gets resolved

On ayrelink....my understanding is it's just a basic two line phone cable. Check to ensure there are four pins. I would first just plug one between amps to see it that works. Both should power up when you turn on one of the connected amps....and by pressing and holding power for two seconds they should both go to standby. If that works....than plug one ayrelink from KXR to one of the open amp connections. Good luck....
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  #72  
Old 04-23-2017, 05:31 PM
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bar 81, you are right it is confusing. Yes, both upgraded and repaired. Yes both are plugged into the same socket. I have tried other sockets as well, and finally yes it is the same amp. To summarise:-

1. all was good and happy with the KXr MXr Mxr running Ayre linked, until late November when one amp started overheating, I decided to upgrade at that time to the Twenty, instead of a warrantee repair.

2. received the upgraded Twenty amps mid March, and one amp started shutting down glowing red (DC offset)

3. sent back for repair and received the repaired amp last week, all worked well until I tried to connect the Ayre link.
There was a difference between the 2 amps on power on when warm, prior to this. The repaired one glowed violet (under voltage) for about 15 or 20 seconds before glowing green. When cold they both went green almost immediately on power on. Was told not to stress about this and enjoy the music, which I did ....... until last night.

I have let it cool down over night and unfortunately while the LED switches from green to blue the relay does not click and no sound emanates from that speaker. I will have to wait until tonight my time to get a response from Ayre.
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  #73  
Old 04-24-2017, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by dinster View Post
There was a difference between the 2 amps on power on when warm, prior to this. The repaired one glowed violet (under voltage) for about 15 or 20 seconds before glowing green. When cold they both went green almost immediately on power on. Was told not to stress about this and enjoy the music, which I did ....... until last night.
Thanks for the indepth description of what happened. The above is definitely not normal - not sure how anyone knowledgeable (whether your dealer or Ayre) could say otherwise. The only lights you should be seeing are green and blue in normal operation.

At this point, I would insist that the amp be "repaired" at the factory via full replacement at no cost and thoroughly run in before being returned.
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  #74  
Old 04-24-2017, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinster View Post
well well....the honey moon is over, tried to connect the Ayre link today, and well it didn't work, the last amp in the chain was not responding to the preamp signals. i tried MXR KXR MXR it clearly states that it doesn't matter in which order as long as you daisy chain, and don't complete the circuit..... and that is when things went awry. My beautiful repaired amp now doesn't produce music....the relay does not click when going from standby (green) to on (blue) and there is no sound. Tried swapping inputs it is a power amp problem not a preamp problem.
Did you use the AyreLink cables supplied with the amps or two-line phone cables you had on hand?

I learned (the hard way) that some phone cables swap cable pairs between ends of the cable and some do not, and AyreLink requires the ones that do.

If you hold both modular jacks of the cable facing the same direction, the center two pins and the outer two pins must switch colors in the cable run.

So, holding the modular clip on top and facing up as shown below, one must be wired Yellow, Green, Red, Black as shown:



The other must be wired (from left) Black, Red, Green, Yellow (where the yellow and black are swapped and the red and green are swapped from the other end.)

If you use cables that do not, (some are wired such that both ends are the same color sequence), bad things happen in the precise way you describe (as far as I can tell from both connected devices trying to "transmit" to each other and/or simultaneously providing trigger output voltages on the same pin); the amp's control circuitry can be damaged as a result. The way you can tell this damage has occurred is if when pressing the LED, the color changes from green to blue with no accompanying "click" from the internal relays; if your amp is exhibiting that behavior it will need to be repaired.

I wish Ayre would put a big flashing warning in their manual about this, but as they pack an AyreLink cable with each amp (or at least with each MX-R Twenty), I suspect they feel they've got it covered.

Last edited by BillK; 04-24-2017 at 09:36 AM.
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  #75  
Old 04-24-2017, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by BillK View Post
Did you use the AyreLink cables supplied with the amps or two-line phone cables you had on hand?

I learned (the hard way) that some phone cables swap cable pairs between ends of the cable and some do not, and AyreLink requires the ones that do.

If you hold both modular jacks of the cable facing the same direction, the center two pins and the outer two pins must switch colors in the cable run.

So, holding the modular clip on top and facing up as shown below, one must be wired Yellow, Green, Red, Black as shown:



The other must be wired (from left) Black, Red, Green, Yellow (where the yellow and black are swapped and the red and green are swapped from the other end.)

If you use cables that do not, (some are wired such that both ends are the same color sequence), bad things happen in the precise way you describe (as far as I can tell from both connected devices trying to "transmit" to each other and/or simultaneously providing trigger output voltages on the same pin); the amp's control circuitry can be damaged as a result. The way you can tell this damage has occurred is if when pressing the LED, the color changes from green to blue with no accompanying "click" from the internal relays; if your amp is exhibiting that behavior it will need to be repaired.

I wish Ayre would put a big flashing warning in their manual about this, but as they pack an AyreLink cable with each amp (or at least with each MX-R Twenty), I suspect they feel they've got it covered.
WOW. That's downright criminal. wtf are Ayre thinking. If that's a realistic outcome, then Ayre should be using a proprietary connection. There was not an Ayrelink cable supplied with the original KX-R or MX-R that I purchased and even if there were my comment above still stands.
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  #76  
Old 04-24-2017, 11:43 AM
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This is what is printed in the Ayre KXR Manual:

AyreLink Ports

The AyreLink communication system provides a convenient
way to control your audio system. There are two AyreLink ports
on the rear panel of the KX-R preamplifier. Each port has four
contacts and contains both an input and an output. Both ports
function identically and may be used interchangeably.

AyreLink connections are made with commonly available
two-line telephone line cords using modular (RJ-11)
connectors. (These are the cords that connect the telephone set
to the wall in many countries.) They are readily available in
different lengths and various colors at most electronics stores.

Be sure to use two-line telephone cords to make
AyreLink connections. These can be identified by
the four gold contacts on each connector.
Single-line cords with only two gold contacts will
not function in this application.
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  #77  
Old 04-24-2017, 01:04 PM
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Billk, can I assume you have had this problem. It is so casually mentioned in the manual who would have guessed that this could destroy an amp. Just researching telephone connectors they use the centre 2 as one line and the outer 2 as the other line, and polarity is irrelevant. The Ayre link uses the outer 2 as trigger and the inner 2 as data, so very different and likely to be critical as to which way the jack is configured. I checked my cables and they are all straight through!

just don't understand why it worked before. Ayre have said they seldom have problems with Ayre link?
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  #78  
Old 04-24-2017, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinster View Post
Billk, can I assume you have had this problem. It is so casually mentioned in the manual who would have guessed that this could destroy an amp. Just researching telephone connectors they use the centre 2 as one line and the outer 2 as the other line, and polarity is irrelevant. The Ayre link uses the outer 2 as trigger and the inner 2 as data, so very different and likely to be critical as to which way the jack is configured. I checked my cables and they are all straight through!

just don't understand why it worked before. Ayre have said they seldom have problems with Ayre link?
The vast majority of people using AyreLink either use the supplied cables, get cables from their dealer or purchase cables, and 99% of the telephone cables on the market do meet this spec as it is part of the standard going back to the old Bell System days (it is actually not swapping polarity if you hold the cord straight, one connector needs to be the mirror image of the other to retain polarity; hold the connectors head to head to see what I mean.)



Unfortunately, there are a few vendors whose cables do not do this, in violation of the appropriate standards, and some make their own cables, incorrectly.

Phone equipment makes the assumption of this switch between wall and phone, and in fact most older telephones will not operate properly if tip and ring are reversed (usually the phone will ring but the touch tone keypad will not break dial tone), so polarity is indeed important.

If you look at the AyreLink port diagram, a cable with the twist will connect the Trigger Input and Ground pins to the two "unlabeled" pins in the port on the other end; a cable where the connectors were wired identically would connect Trigger Input to Trigger Input and Ground to Ground.

The problem is the industry as a whole and people in general have started to play fast and loose with what is a phone cord and what is a data cord, and whether polarity matters.

AyreLink was designed to work with an industry standard two line telephone line cord. People and companies used to making network cables where the pinout of the connector on each end does not change use terms and cable wiring skills interchangeably and havoc results.

Last edited by BillK; 04-24-2017 at 07:59 PM.
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  #79  
Old 04-25-2017, 02:54 AM
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Thanks for a useful post. I was battling with the Ayre link with the cables that worked before the modification. Since there was no true guidance and the Manual says use any proprietary telephone cable, I took the cables supplied with my NetGear modem and connected them. It is at this time that things went awry. Looking at those cables now they are definitely not mirror images. I have made up cables now that are mirror images as you describe, but that has not solved the problem. Still waiting to hear from Ayre as to a potential fix.

If buying cables that are incorrectly wired is lethal to the amps,
I suspect there should be some more detail in the manual as to what is required.
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  #80  
Old 04-25-2017, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinster View Post
Thanks for a useful post. I was battling with the Ayre link with the cables that worked before the modification. Since there was no true guidance and the Manual says use any proprietary telephone cable, I took the cables supplied with my NetGear modem and connected them. It is at this time that things went awry. Looking at those cables now they are definitely not mirror images. I have made up cables now that are mirror images as you describe, but that has not solved the problem. Still waiting to hear from Ayre as to a potential fix.
Unfortunately, in my experience, once you've used a cable with the wrong wiring, the amp that no longer clicks when going from green to blue will need to have internal hardware replaced; for better or worse it seems only the amps are sensitive to this, not the preamps.

Yes, there should be a warning about this in the manual in 72 point red type in all caps. ;-)

Last edited by BillK; 04-25-2017 at 06:04 AM.
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