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#71
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#72
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Hello, sorry to resurrect an old thread but I found this quite interesting. I listened to a pair of Triangle Magellan Quatuor at the local Triangle/McIntosh dealer. System for the audition was DCS Rossini Player/DAC + C1100 + 1,2kw monos. It was incredible so I have to have those speakers. Now this Triangle Quatuors are difficult to drive, are quoted at 260w in 8ohms and are able to receive 500w peaks. They were measured to dip to 3ohms. Of course my budget does not allow for such an expensive pream/amp combo and I was discussing with the dealer about a MC462 which I think should be more than enough. For preamp/DAC I would use an old Devialet D200 I have until I will have more money to upgrade. But the dealer told me he has a second hand Mastersound Evolution 845 integrated tube amp (55W Class A) and he thinks that this tiny integrated is more than enough with those speakers (which I found hard to believe) Obviously I will audition with both when my speakers arrive but I have 2 questions. 1. Why do you think tube watts are so much "bigger" than ss watts? Same principles should apply to both? Or maybe I am missing something? The only electrical difference I know is that tube amps soft clip when pushed too hard vs ss amps which will hard clip, possibly destroying the tweeters. 2. As I made my audition on 1,2kw monos should I expect a very bad surprise in terms of SQ when I downgrade to 462? Thank you very much, Cristian |
#73
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Is Mcintosh the most popular Hifi brand?
Tube watts being ‘bigger’ than SS watts is a bit of popular audio fiction. It is just that, fiction.
If both amps are being driven in their normal operating range, there is no difference. Zero. Nada. But if you overdrive a tube amp, it will overload more gracefully than a SS amp of the same power rating. This is the soft vs hard clipping phenomena you mentioned. But why run your amplifier into clipping in the first place? Seems kind of, well, stupid to me. Hi-Fi amps are not guitar amps, which are designed to go into clipping. McIntosh amps have a ‘house sound’ that is similar across the range, so a 462 should sound similar to a 1.2 KW.
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Main System: Amati Futura Mains Amati Homage VOX Center, Proac Response 1sc Rears, Three MC2301's for L,C,R MC 602 for the rears C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 80 Nottingham Dais with Wave Mechanic Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation SurfacePro 3, RPi 4, ROON, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material. Lake House: Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 77, Rega P3 OnDeck: McIntosh MAC 4300v |
#74
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I’ll just add to what Tom already mentioned above. Odd vs even order harmonics of tubes upon clipping, the later being much more “palatable” for the ears
Clipping is typically not an issue with the McIntosh Amps of either variety? Damping factor between solid state and tube amps is often the biggest source of difference in the perceived power. What is technically a better control over the woofers with a solid state amp, vs a tube amp may be perceived as dry, less analog or powerful bass. The “looser”, “fatter”, “rounder” more “analog” and often “tuneful” bass can be perceived as the more powerful watts of the tube amp. |
#75
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To expand on the topic. From elsewhere:
“The harmonic content of an overdriven tube amplifier consists primarily of 2nd order and 3rd order harmonics with some 4th order harmonics. The harmonic content of an overdriven transistor amplifier is primarily 3rd order with suppressed 2nd order harmonics. 2nd and 3rd order harmonics are the most important from a viewpoint of electronic distortion. Musically the 2nd harmonic is an octave above the fundamental and is almost inaudible, yet it adds body to the sound, making it fuller. The 3rd harmonic is a musical 12th. Instead of making the tone fuller, a strong 3rd harmonic makes the tone softer. The odd harmonics (3rd, 5th, etc.) produce a "stopped" or "covered" sound. The even harmonics (2nd, 4th, etc.) produce a "choral" or "singing" sound. Adding a 5th to a strong 3rd harmonic give the sound a metallic quality that gets annoying in character as the amplitude increases. A strong 2nd with a strong 3rd harmonic tends to open the "covered" effect. Adding the 4th and 5th harmonics to this gives an "open horn" character. The higher harmonics, above the 7th, give the tone "edge" or "bite." Full article http://www.tungsol.com/tungsol/html/faqs14.html Last edited by PHC1; 10-19-2020 at 11:05 AM. |
#76
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Not so with a solid state amp. As the SS amp approaches clipping you may notice an increase in harshness, etc. However, when operating within the optimal 10% range, I believe an excellent SS amp matches or beats an excellent tube amp because it will be much better on the bass and comparable or actually better in the mid and treble because of a better S/N ratio and better resolution. Also, SS amps do a better job with insensitive speakers and low impedance loads. Bottom line, I think you will be just fine with a 462 with this speaker. I would avoid that small tube amp. Mac SS amps are designed to sound like a tube amp and have great bass, neither over or under damped. But by all means audition both. However, remember that it takes months of listening to reliably determine the suitability of the amp/speaker interaction. Best Charles |
#77
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#78
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Hello,
Thanks all for the responses, now I understand better what to expect. The only thing which I am not sure of is the difference in dynamics and SQ between 462 and 1,2kw monos. Normally the 462 should deliver easily more than the speakers can handle. Regards, Cristian |
#79
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Separately, I would expect a larger difference between these SS beauties and a tube amp or two. Better or worse would be a matter of taste. I don't know if the tube amp you mentioned is powerful enough to compete against the 462, but I think your dealer was right to ask the question. Have fun choosing!
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Clearaudio Ovation with Tracer Dynavector KARAT 17DX Naim Uniti Core Schiit Yggdrasil McIntosh C22/MC275 Wilson TuneTots B&W DB3D Nordost QKore/QBase/Frey 2 Transparent Super IsoAcoustics GAIA II Stax SR-009S with SRM-700T |
#80
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I have had, and compared, the previous 452 against the 1.2KW Mac amps and can say that while the two amps had a similar sound signature, the 1.2KW did a better job at driving my speakers more effortlessly and as a consequence did sound better than the 452. My speakers however were the 800D3’s which were deserved of larger amplifiers with more ‘juice’. I would say that speakers will have influence on your ability to access what the bigger amps are able to ultimately deliver to the speakers...
Either amp will do a great job - the upside of the 462 is the space you save, not to mention you will save your back by not having to move the 1.2’s! |
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