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  #11  
Old 02-08-2018, 05:56 PM
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Jerome W Jerome W is offline
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Default Bob's devices SKY 30 SUT

New outcomes.
A friend of mine who is very dedicated to vinyl and tubes told me that SUTs do actually need break in and according to him, 300 hours is the minimum.
He let me to try a tube MM phono stage from the french company Halgorythme ( actually I had one and sold it a few months ago ) because he suspected that the MM stage of my Cyrus could not be optimal.
Things improved with the Halgorythme. But still I was not rediscovering this crazy feeling of magic and out of this world that I got with the Cyrus MC stage. So the Cyrus MC went back and the magic returned.
I set up the Rosewood in the living room system and tried there the SKY 30 in the Shindo Monbrison. The sound is a bit dark but very musical and the voices are stunning, very familiar to the Urushi Vermillion.
I will let the Sky 30 break in in the second system and will give it a new chance in the main system in a few months. For now, the Cyrus MC stage is so much more pleasant to my ears that it is impossible not to use it.
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  #12  
Old 02-08-2018, 07:20 PM
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Jerome - To avoid the approximately 900 album side playings that would be needed to reach 300 hours of break-in time, you might want to invest ~$35 in a Granite Audio Phono Burn-In CD which you should be able to find available with a quick search. It allows you to run a very low MC level signal on a CD player's track repeat feeding the SUT to facilitate burn-in. Congrats on your new Urushi Vermillion, and enjoy the tunes!
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  #13  
Old 02-09-2018, 02:30 AM
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Jerome - To avoid the approximately 900 album side playings that would be needed to reach 300 hours of break-in time, you might want to invest ~$35 in a Granite Audio Phono Burn-In CD which you should be able to find available with a quick search. It allows you to run a very low MC level signal on a CD player's track repeat feeding the SUT to facilitate burn-in. Congrats on your new Urushi Vermillion, and enjoy the tunes!

Thanks ! Great tool.
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  #14  
Old 04-14-2018, 12:59 AM
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Update on the Sky 30 :
I am using it now in the living room system, with the Koetsu Rosewood Standard and a LFD MM0 phonostage. The Sky 30 is a superb SUT. It gives a full weight sound with saturated tones and agility that serves perfectly the Rosewood. There is a a ton of finesse in this unit. And it is dead silent.
I will have to try it again in the main system. But I am still thrilled by the performance of the Cyrus phono signature there.
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  #15  
Old 04-16-2018, 09:07 AM
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So despite using dedicated phono stages, there has been a benefit with a SUT? I have never been clear on the role of a SUT in the context of a phono stage. I have a phono stage with variable impedance, but I was not certain of the need or benefit of a SUT. Maybe I will give Bob a call.
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Amplifiers: McIntosh 1.2 Kw
Preamp: Esoteric C03
Speakers: Salon2 with F113v2 x 2
Analog: VPI Avenger Reference with Ortofon A95 and Esoteric E03 phonostage
Digital: Silenzio and Esoteric K03-x and G02
Power Management: PS Audio P10 x 2, P5
Cables: WW PE7 SC & IC, Furutech Flux-50 Filters
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  #16  
Old 04-16-2018, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtroo View Post
So despite using dedicated phono stages, there has been a benefit with a SUT? I have never been clear on the role of a SUT in the context of a phono stage. I have a phono stage with variable impedance, but I was not certain of the need or benefit of a SUT. Maybe I will give Bob a call.
Tim - The use of a SUT effectively replaces the additional gain provided by most MC sections ahead of the MM section. The MM gain section of a phono stage provides a significant amount of gain (usually ~40dB) along with required RIAA equalization which is needed for phono playback. If you used a SUT with your Esoteric phono stage for example, your phono cables would feed the SUT which would then be connected to your Esoteric set in its MM mode. There are some concerns which have to be addressed regarding proper loading when using SUTs which Bob could definitely assist you with. Some users prefer the performance of SUTs as opposed to using an active MC gain section, but there are many variables involved and preferences vary. Hope this helps!
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Old 04-16-2018, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio bill View Post
Tim - The use of a SUT effectively replaces the additional gain provided by most MC sections ahead of the MM section. The MM gain section of a phono stage provides a significant amount of gain (usually ~40dB) along with required RIAA equalization which is needed for phono playback. If you used a SUT with your Esoteric phono stage for example, your phono cables would feed the SUT which would then be connected to your Esoteric set in its MM mode. There are some concerns which have to be addressed regarding proper loading when using SUTs which Bob could definitely assist you with. Some users prefer the performance of SUTs as opposed to using an active MC gain section, but there are many variables involved and preferences vary. Hope this helps!
Thanks. It does.
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Amplifiers: McIntosh 1.2 Kw
Preamp: Esoteric C03
Speakers: Salon2 with F113v2 x 2
Analog: VPI Avenger Reference with Ortofon A95 and Esoteric E03 phonostage
Digital: Silenzio and Esoteric K03-x and G02
Power Management: PS Audio P10 x 2, P5
Cables: WW PE7 SC & IC, Furutech Flux-50 Filters
Rack: HRS SXR Signature
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  #18  
Old 04-17-2018, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio bill View Post
Tim - The use of a SUT effectively replaces the additional gain provided by most MC sections ahead of the MM section. The MM gain section of a phono stage provides a significant amount of gain (usually ~40dB) along with required RIAA equalization which is needed for phono playback. If you used a SUT with your Esoteric phono stage for example, your phono cables would feed the SUT which would then be connected to your Esoteric set in its MM mode. There are some concerns which have to be addressed regarding proper loading when using SUTs which Bob could definitely assist you with. Some users prefer the performance of SUTs as opposed to using an active MC gain section, but there are many variables involved and preferences vary. Hope this helps!
This is good info, I've been on the MC fence for awhile now, think I've settled on a cart that will work fine with my C2300's MC input, but I also have a Bob's SUT I picked up a couple years ago. I'll have the luxury of being able to compare the two. Most of the feedback I've read seem to favor a SUT into an MM input, but I'll let my ears be the judge.
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  #19  
Old 04-18-2018, 12:31 AM
mulveling mulveling is offline
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Advantages of using a SUT:
  • Lots of noise-free gain, usually in the range of 20dB (10x) to 32dB (40x), to replace an active MC gain stage (i.e. the MC stepup, or headamp stage) that necessarily contributes to the noise floor.
  • Allows tube purists to use an all-tube chain for low-MC cartridges, without paying the toll of high noise floor from having all gain stages be active. I.e. if you find a SUT you love with your low-MC then you need only look for active MM stages to complement it; note that there are very few phono stages that utilize all-tube gain stages and support low MC's, and they're (without exception) notoriously difficult to source ultra low-noise tubes for. And the more gain you can get from your SUT, the more it will effectively suppress noise floor from your MM stage, because your line-stage's volume control can be turned down to reject that noise.
  • Just as some people love the sound of vinyl or tape, some love the sound of transformers with MC cartridges: "a coil driving a coil"
  • There are absolutely superb sounding modern SUT choices for prices that are very reasonable in context of today's hifi analog gear; i.e. $300 - $1600. CineMag and Lundahl have many great choices in this range; Jensen is also quite popular and very affordably priced (though I haven't heard a Jensen MC SUT yet, their line-level transformers are excellent).
  • A SUT is a passive device, so there's nothing to break, burn out, or replace.
  • Each SUT model has a distinctly different sound, and synergizes differently with various cartridges -- so welcome to another level of audiophile rolling nervosa! You may be shocked by how different various models sound. You will obsess over amorphous vs. mu meta cores, silver vs. copper wire, which ratio is optimal for your cartridge, how to load (or whether to) the secondary (and how exotic you go on those resistors, e.g. nude Vishays), etc.

Disadvantages:
  • SUT's have their own distortion artifacts. Typically it gets worse as you increase the step-up ratio (i.e. as you increase gain).
  • The interconnect from SUT to phono stage (MM input) becomes MASSIVELY important. Keeping it short and very low in capacitance is crucial. Low-capacitance phono cables are are good choice here. Massive audiophile-grade large-gauge interconnects can be BAD. You might be shocked by how much difference this link can make.
  • Besides the extra interconnect with an outboard SUT, you also introduce 2 extra connection points (1 contact, 1 soldered) for the very delicate, very low-level analog signal to traverse. It's always ideal if you can have the SUT built into your phono stage -- which is exactly the approach of many tube-based phono stage makers.
  • You may have to do some research and fiddling with grounding schemes to suppress all the hum/buzz gremlins.
  • Unless you are a DIY'er or having your SUT interface custom built, you may not have great loading options available -- in that case, the load the cartridge sees is purely a function of the stepup ratio: MM stage input impedance (almost always 47K) divided by the SQUARE of the ratio (e.g. 40x => 47K / 40 / 40 = 29 ohms). This can lead you down a path of having multiple SUTs if you run multiple carts.
  • SUT's can be awkward little lightweight boxes to situate; heavy cables often tip it, and you must consider vibration control because it's relatively closely connected (via cables) to your tonearm.
  • Each SUT model has a distinctly different sound, and synergizes differently with various cartridges -- so welcome to another level of audiophile rolling nervosa! You may be shocked by how different various models sound. You will obsess over amorphous vs. mu meta cores, silver vs. copper wire, which ratio is optimal for your cartridge, how to load (or whether to) the secondary (and how exotic you go on those resistors, e.g. nude Vishays), etc.

Last edited by mulveling; 04-18-2018 at 12:30 PM.
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  #20  
Old 04-18-2018, 08:15 AM
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^^ Excellent SUT overview Mike, thanks! ^^
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