Tube and tube like, some similarities and differences

[Alberto]

A lot has been said about the sound of tubes and how some solid-state gear sounds tube-like. I've contributed to quite a few of these discussions myself.

The last few hours with the Shindo Montille (which uses 4 EL84 tubes) is, I believe, a very good example of what I think is the major difference between tube-sounding amps and actual tube amp.

Typically when I speak about tube-like sound, I am talking about the smoothness and liquidity that people associate (rightly or wrongly) with tubes. For that particular attribute of tube, I can think of many amps that sound tube-like - including most McIntosh amps I've owned starting from the MC250 to the MC252 to the MC501. They all have a wonderful tube-like smoothness - perhaps the output transformers have something to do with that.

But the Shindo made me realized an aspect of tube-like sound that I have yet to experience in solid-state amps - and that's a level of depth and three-dimensionality.

I talked about this 3D effect when, a few weeks back, I reported on my Fisher 600 receiver from the 60s (also an EL84 amp). I had a lot of faults, but it "painted" a wonderful 3D soundstage. For example, if I closed my eyes on some vocal tracks my brain would conjure up a gigantic set of 3D lips hanging in mid-air (hey, it's the best way I can describe it so lay off .)

The Shindo does a very similar trick, minus the of the weaknesses of the 50 year-old Fisher.

Another noticeable difference between tube-sounding amps and amps that actually use tubes is a "shimmer" in the higher octaves, most noticeable with cymbal-like sounds.

Over the years, I've come to appreciate tube and tube-like sound for the smoothness of the sound and the liquid midrange. But some tube amps (not all) do things that I have yet to hear a solid state amp do: namely adding a lot of depth to the sound stage in a way that's different from the best solid state amps and adding a shimmer to the highs that I haven't heard from solid-state gear.

Notice my choice of words: I said "adding" not "revealing". Here's the thing, I have a funny feeling that these effects, as wonderful as they sound to my ears, are not the result of increased realism. Why do I think that? Because I haven't experienced this type of three-dimensionality and "shimmer" in live acoustic performances. They show up even in studio recordings where whatever soundstage exists is the result of mixing and panning tricks.

Please keep in mind that these are very personal observation based on a relatively limited exposure to various gear. It's very possible that some solid-state amps I haven't heard do the same thing, but I suspect that what I'm hearing has to do with electrons excitedly jumping the vacuum space of glass tubes. The similarities between my two EL84 amps with respect to these effects is hard to ignore.


Alberto

[US Blues]

Great post Alberto, very well thought out and articulated. You bring up a point that I believe is key: "Notice my choice of words: I said "adding" not "revealing". Here's the thing, I have a funny feeling that these effects, as wonderful as they sound to my ears, are not the result of increase realism."

Our entire hobby is predicated on artificially creating the illusion of a musical event taking place in our listening room: John Coltrane is not standing in my living room blowing on the sax; Jimi Hendrix is not generating howling feedback in front of the couch; Eva Cassidy is not singing sweetly in my home.

How we each choose to create this illusion, however delicious the sound our system can generate, allows us as listeners to have an emotional connection to the music we are listening too that satisfies that place deep within that we all know. Ultimately we each have a unique set of needs we meet, yet many criteria for that emotional connection we hold in common with one another, and so gear from a company like McIntosh suits the tastes of many folks here, and yet we each have our final individual needs (and budget).

Your recognition of what tubes provide in the musical illusion is useful and instructive, and you bring life to what you are hearing through your words. Thank you!

[Still-One]

Nice thread Alberto and a nice follow up post by US Blues.

Alberto's point about about a 3D effect of tubes is the one benefit I hear when listening to a tube system versus solids state, there is often a greater depth to the soundstage.

Jim

[f1 fan]

Alberto...great thread and nice post

Dave

[MC352]

What F1 Fan said +1

[cmalak]

Alberto...I totally agree. Historically, the traditional tube amp sound was a midrange-heavy, syrupy sound with rounded and attenuated highs and lows, which meant you got a smooth, liquid presentation (i.e., very little in upfront transient attack on the leading edge of notes), and often flabby bass and almost no sparkle and air in the top end. But you also got as you said 3D soundstage (width and depth on the stage), 3D body or image density, and you got bloom or what Jonathan Valin calls musical action, which is a sense of the music moving in space as a function of the register being played.

Modern tube amps have gotten much more close to their SS brethren in delivering solid bass response, extended highs with air and sparkle around instruments, while still delivering a liquid and smooth sounding midrange, and most importantly retaining that 3D soundstage and image density and musical bloom.

One interesting aspect of this is which piece in the chain has to be tubed to deliver these qualities? Some people prefer to mate tube preamps and SS amps to get the benefits of a tube sonic presentation but with greater power and control at the frequency extremes through the SS power amp. My experience has been that if the power amp (or output stage of an integrated amp) is not a tube amp, you cannot get a meaningful tube sonic signature. But I know that many people will disagree with this.

Anyway, interesting topic and thanks for kicking off the discussion. And most of all, I am surprised that Jim actually volunteered this positive comment on tube gear :

Originally Posted by Still-One

Alberto's point about about a 3D effect of tubes is the one benefit I hear when listening to a tube system versus solids state, there is often a greater depth to the soundstage.

Jim

[jdandy]

Originally Posted by Alberto

For example, if I closed my eyes on some vocal tracks my brain would conjure up a gigantic set of 3D lips hanging in mid-air (hey, it's the best way I can describe it so lay off .)

Alberto.......I think you need a new sweet spot couch.

[1KW]

Alberto very interesting observations…. did I tell you its good to have you back on AA posting regularly again I think this " tube effect " may be why I and many others prefer having a C2300 in the system with solid state amps. You are using the MDA as your pre amp right now so it is sort of the same thing mixing tube and solid state together. It will interesting reading your impression of the Luxman as a pre amp and by itself. I was wondering were these observations strictly with digital music or did you feel the same way with LP's ?

[Alberto]

Originally Posted by jdandy

Alberto.......I think you need a new sweet spot couch.

Good one Dan, but where's the couch ... oh, I see it now.

Alberto

[Alberto]

Originally Posted by 1KW

Alberto very interesting observations…. did I tell you its good to have you back on AA posting regularly again I think this " tube effect " may be why I and many others prefer having a C2300 in the system with solid state amps. You are using the MDA as your pre amp right now so it is sort of the same thing mixing tube and solid state together. It will interesting reading your impression of the Luxman as a pre amp and by itself. I was wondering were these observations strictly with digital music or did you feel the same way with LP's ?

I observed the effect with both digital and analog.

Stay tuned for a post on tubes in the pre vs tubes in the power amp.

Alberto