Subs for Salon2

[scirica]

Originally Posted by mtroo

Steve,

Looks like it's time to update your gear tags/signature line.

Done!

[Pampero]

Originally Posted by mtroo

Steve,
Looks like it's time to update your gear tags/signature line.

By any chance does the CR1 include delays? (I suppose I could check the specs, but this it's so much easier to ask ). I'd suspect not since it's a pure analog device, but such a thing would be swell indeed.

In larger venues, a phase control is useless as the differences in spacial location can't be covered by phase alone. The same is probably true if speakers and subs are widely separated in space in a smaller room or if their phase response is fundamentally different in the first place. To be honest, I can't hear any difference when playing with the phase control on my F113/2, but "crossover" frequency point (well, just low pass in my case), is huge. For me, anything much above 45Hz causes a lot of bloat and smear, but of course, with your true crossover, you'll have a lot more tuning options. I gotta get me one of those, and another sub, but I'm in baby step mode.

Given we have (mostly) similarly voiced equipment, I'm very eager to hear how it settles out for you in the end.

[scirica]

No delay that I can see. Just getting used to the knobs until I get Barry's setup CD.

[Rex Anderson]

A method an old sound man gave me is to invert the polarity switch and adjust phase until you find the null (least amount of bass), then flip the polarity switch back to normal.

[scirica]

Originally Posted by Rex Anderson

A method an old sound man gave me is to invert the polarity switch and adjust phase until you find the null (least amount of bass), then flip the polarity switch back to normal.

That's a step in Barry's process as well.

[Pampero]

No matter how much faith you put into phase rotation, the biggest effect it has will be to help align the subwoofer to the phase characteristics of the main speakers at certain frequencies. It cannot account for the majority of differences in speaker placement or delay in the real world. It's a complex issue but a short (if somewhat non-inclusive comment) is that a single all pass network as supplied in most subs that include the feature is less likely to have wide reaching effects than more elaborate circuitry. I reckon it's a good first step and usually the only one available to us anyway. Aligning subs in time AND phase with the mains takes considerably more circuitry than we are typically allowed in our commercially available subwoofers.

I'm not saying you can't or won't hear a difference, just that what you do hear may or may not be optimal and in most cases won't allow for true time alignment.

LINK

[scirica]

Originally Posted by Pampero

No matter how much faith you put into phase rotation, the biggest effect it has will be to help align the subwoofer to the phase characteristics of the main speakers at certain frequencies. It cannot account for the majority of differences in speaker placement or delay in the real world. It's a complex issue but a short (if somewhat non-inclusive comment) is that a single all pass network as supplied in most subs that include the feature is less likely to have wide reaching effects than more elaborate circuitry. I reckon it's a good first step and usually the only one available to us anyway. Aligning subs in time AND phase with the mains takes considerably more circuitry than we are typically allowed in our commercially available subwoofers.



I'm not saying you can't or won't hear a difference, just that what you do hear may or may not be optimal and in most cases won't allow for true time alignment.



LINK

Totally agree. I think the CR-1 is a step in the right direction. It will be a factor of physical subwoofer placement along with phase correction to get us part way there. They already sound great in my system and hopefully (surely) there is room for improvement!

[trponhunter]

Once you try a good digital crossover, and have true time alignment - you'll never go back.

[Pampero]

Originally Posted by scirica

Totally agree. I think the CR-1 is a step in the right direction. It will be a factor of physical subwoofer placement along with phase correction to get us part way there. They already sound great in my system and hopefully (surely) there is room for improvement!

Originally Posted by trponhunter

Once you try a good digital crossover, and have true time alignment - you'll never go back.

Even before I add a second sub, I will add a crossover. I've considered a BSS London Blue which is a high end fully digital device designed for the pro market. Considerations against it are that it will digitize the signal for both legs and the delay is focused primarily at users who need to align large scale delay towers, not the brief delays encountered in small room applications (maybe I have that wrong...it's how I remember it though). It also does more than I'd need, requires specific programming (although I am trained in that) and nobody I know has used one in precisely the way I'd intend. I think the main benefit it offers me is a full compliment of delays. It is considered a very good sounding device in the pro world, but it was never intended for studio work, more for large scale distribution of sound.

That puts the CR1 right back in my sights. A perfect solution would be the JL with a dedicated delay designed with short corrective times in mind. It could be assignable to either leg. Frankly, I suspect a CR1 like yours would be all I'd need since I have freedom of placement for at least two subs.

If I were to go to a three or four sub setup, additional delays would be handy but frankly, at a certain point I start chasing the dragon again and I don't have permission to do that. I don't even want to! . Since this is the Revel forum I will add that I believe the Revel Ultima sub included both a full crossover and delays, which undoubtedly added to its price. Not available anyway as they discontinued it, suggesting it was a bridge too far? One thing I do know is that Kevin Voecks (sort of) scoffs at the usual rotatable phase controls on most subs, hinting that they don't add much to the party.

Some folks I know are experimenting with a version of the dbx Drive Rack. That's a cost effective solution and cheap enough that you could buy one just for the delay section, maybe figure out a way to apply it to just the LF leg. I'm speculating and I'm not sure if it even has fine enough gradations to use for speaker alignment. Various versions of the BSS may have included that feature (I can't remember, it's been a while), as has I believe the Lake processor crossover section. Seems like a perfect product for a company like Bricasti that has pro and high end access.

To be honest, I'd be fine with a CR1, I'm sure!

[Pampero]

Since the Revel pages are active again, I will update this thread.

I ended up with a CR1 (JLA) and ended up satisfied with my choice. I also added a second Fathom F113.

I used Barry Ober's system for tuning the speakers. With great hesitance I plugged the ports of my Salon 2s and crossed over at 80 Hz. My rig is optimized for 2 channel listening but it does a commendable job on movies as long as one isn't looking for the full surround experience because 2 channels and the subs are all I've got. Barry suggests tuning to the null (setting the levels...he provides full info on how to do that with his CD) and that's exactly what I did. I haven't touched the crossover since I did the full tune and I'm very happy with how smooth the blend of mains and subs are. I don't have my second sub in optimal position, it being a compromise between optimal location and trying to maintain some room symmetry/convenience in respect to its location.

Overall though, music sounds great to me and instruments have what I think is a natural weight coupled with realistic balance.

Ober's system is very handy and not too hard to implement, especially for a two channel only rig. You do learn that the more subs the better, but I've taken a break from the equipment acquisition rat race for now.