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  #21  
Old 08-29-2019, 05:16 AM
LarsT LarsT is offline
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Default Harbeth 30.2 in-room, real-time measurements!

Is there an Audio Engineering For Dummies here, and is it an elective or required coursework? Either way, I’m screwed. Bottom line....are these speakers up to the task?

Last edited by LarsT; 08-29-2019 at 05:25 AM.
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  #22  
Old 08-29-2019, 07:50 AM
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Default Harbeth 30.2 in-room, real-time measurements!

That looks very good! With sub placement & tuning, you should be able to bring it all together.

Does your REL sub allow you to adjust time phase? (May not be the correct language). Eg match the wave front of your sub with your mains at the crossover point? Sometimes done with placement of the sub, DSP or through a ‘phase’ adjustment like the JL Subs have.

I have no doubt you can boost and flatten out the <100Hz region, getting the timing right will be a final and important step.
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Last edited by crwilli; 08-29-2019 at 10:32 AM.
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  #23  
Old 08-29-2019, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crwilli View Post
That looks very good! With sub placement & tuning, you should be able to bring it all together.

Does your REL sub allow you to adjust time phase? (May not be the correct language). Eg match the wave front of your sub with your mains at the crossover point? Sometimes done with placement of the sub, DSP or through a ‘phase’ adjustment like the JL Subs have.

I have no doubt you can boost and flatten out the <100Hz region, getting the timing right will be a final and important step.
Hi Craig,
There is a phase switch on the REL. I have to re-read the manual thoroughly about how this is used per your suggestions. Its good I broke out the manual before doing anything with respect to the settings on the sub, because the knob for Crossover is different than the one I thought it was (the knob I thought was XO was actually for the .1/LFE for home theatre).

Cheers and thanks for the tips.
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  #24  
Old 08-29-2019, 04:49 PM
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I am not sure but don’t think the phase switch is the same thing a JL Audio sub has. They have a phase switch that says 0-180. They also have a dial that can be turned to time the wave front of the sub with the main speaker closest to it. I don’t know exactly how it works but it does work.
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  #25  
Old 08-29-2019, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crwilli View Post
I am not sure but don’t think the phase switch is the same thing a JL Audio sub has. They have a phase switch that says 0-180. They also have a dial that can be turned to time the wave front of the sub with the main speaker closest to it. I don’t know exactly how it works but it does work.
Hi Craig,
I don’t know the distinctions between the REL and the JL, but the REL is what I have to work with, so I have to work within those “constraints”. Alan Shaw recommends REL sub-bass systems for integration with Harbeth, and he knows what he’s doing, so I’m confident good integration is achievable.
Cheers.
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  #26  
Old 08-29-2019, 10:06 PM
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And I am not an audio engineer. I am an audio ‘alchemist’. My experience suggests that getting the timing right is the last tune to get the best integration. First steps are levels, crossover points and absolute phase. Timing comes last.

I know you have defined constraints so your DOE should be quite valuable to help you zero it all in.

Have fun with it!
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  #27  
Old 08-30-2019, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crwilli View Post
I am not sure but don’t think the phase switch is the same thing a JL Audio sub has. They have a phase switch that says 0-180. They also have a dial that can be turned to time the wave front of the sub with the main speaker closest to it. I don’t know exactly how it works but it does work.


The continuously variable phase control adds variable time delay at the crossover frequency. It’s effectiveness is very dependent on the implementation used by the sub manufacturer. The 0-180 polarity reversal switch does just what it says - it inverts the entire signal, just like reversing the speaker cable + and - terminals.

Why does this matter?

A single cycle at 80 Hz is 12.5 mSec. The speed of sound on air is approximately 1000 ft/sec so 12.5 mSec is approximately 12.5 ft.

Most subs, and any sub with DSP will have a delay of 10 mSec or more. There is no way you can position a sub to be time aligned with your mains - the distances involved are too great. Instead, you find a spot where the sub couples into the room properly and then adjust the polarity and phase Controls so that, at the crossover frequency at least, the output of your sub and mains is the same level and in phase. You will have a result that looks good with REW or other swept measurement system as you will be producing relatively constant acoustic power vs frequency.

What you have not done is time align the system. So while the output of the sub and mains are in phase at the crossover, they may be off by an entire cycle or more in absolute terms.

If you don’t use an outboard crossover, this is where you stop. Your sub and mains may or may not be time aligned. Generally they will NOT be time aligned and the sub output will lag the mains by a cycle or more.

If you have an external crossover with delay adjustment you can time align the system with an appropriate impulse response analyzer like MLSSA.


I have a JL Gotham and Sonus Faber Amati Futuras. In 2 channel mode, the Gotham is not used because I have plenty of bass output. In HT mode, the Gotham handles everything below 80 Hz. Through my pre/pro distance adjustment, the entire setup is perfectly time aligned as measured with my MLSSA analyzer.

A long post, sorry about that, but I thought it would be good to discuss what is really happening when you add a sub to a 2 channel system without compensating for time delay.

Tom
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  #28  
Old 08-30-2019, 04:00 PM
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Good Post Tom.
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  #29  
Old 08-30-2019, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
The continuously variable phase control adds variable time delay at the crossover frequency. It%u2019s effectiveness is very dependent on the implementation used by the sub manufacturer. The 0-180 polarity reversal switch does just what it says - it inverts the entire signal, just like reversing the speaker cable + and - terminals.

Why does this matter?

A single cycle at 80 Hz is 12.5 mSec. The speed of sound on air is approximately 1000 ft/sec so 12.5 mSec is approximately 12.5 ft.

Most subs, and any sub with DSP will have a delay of 10 mSec or more. There is no way you can position a sub to be time aligned with your mains - the distances involved are too great. Instead, you find a spot where the sub couples into the room properly and then adjust the polarity and phase Controls so that, at the crossover frequency at least, the output of your sub and mains is the same level and in phase. You will have a result that looks good with REW or other swept measurement system as you will be producing relatively constant acoustic power vs frequency.

What you have not done is time align the system. So while the output of the sub and mains are in phase at the crossover, they may be off by an entire cycle or more in absolute terms.

If you don%u2019t use an outboard crossover, this is where you stop. Your sub and mains may or may not be time aligned. Generally they will NOT be time aligned and the sub output will lag the mains by a cycle or more.

If you have an external crossover with delay adjustment you can time align the system with an appropriate impulse response analyzer like MLSSA.


I have a JL Gotham and Sonus Faber Amati Futuras. In 2 channel mode, the Gotham is not used because I have plenty of bass output. In HT mode, the Gotham handles everything below 80 Hz. Through my pre/pro distance adjustment, the entire setup is perfectly time aligned as measured with my MLSSA analyzer.

A long post, sorry about that, but I thought it would be good to discuss what is really happening when you add a sub to a 2 channel system without compensating for time delay.

Tom
Appreciate all the useful and interesting, info, Tom.

There is no way for me to control the Timing of the REL's output, as there is no knob/control for timing on the R-305 as there ion the JL subs. So, for my application, this control factor for my DOE is "irrelevant".

Good info, though, and I appreciate knowing more about this.

Last edited by Puma Cat; 08-30-2019 at 05:38 PM.
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