AudioAficionado.org  

Go Back   AudioAficionado.org > Manufacturers Forums > Ayre

Ayre A new dimension of musical enjoyment

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 07-06-2018, 11:57 AM
Macuser's Avatar
Macuser Macuser is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Connectitax
Posts: 71
Default

I went back and forth several times with balanced vs unbalanced connections trying to hear a difference on my MC1201's earlier this year. It wasn't a dramatic change but I found myself preferring the balanced connection. The specs say it's 4db quieter with the balanced connection so that may have something to do with my findings.
__________________
Main; Mcintosh C100, D100, MVP831, MC1201's, Polk sda 1.2tl's MIT Shotguns
Secondary; Mcintosh C33, MR80, MC2125, Klipsch Khorns, MIT Shotguns
Puter; Mcintosh D100, MC2255, ADS L1530's, MIT Shotguns
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-07-2018, 03:34 AM
RLF's Avatar
RLF RLF is online now
Senior Member

 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 338
Default

Iíve auditioned both balanced and unbalanced interconnects of the same brand and model between my fully balanced ARC preamp and Ayre amps. Thereís is no contest in my system, as the balanced interconnects won hands down. However, YMMV, so itís best to do a home audition with both unbalanced and balanced cables the same make and model in your own system and you be the judge of what sound best.
__________________
Aurender N10 music server, Ayre QX-5 & PS Audio DirectStream DACs, PS Audio DMP transport, Audio Research Reference 6 preamp, Ayre MX-R TWENTY amps, Sonus Faber Amati Futura speakers, Shunyata Research Sigma interconnects and speaker cables. Shunyata Research Sigma & Synergistic Research Galileo power cords, Synergistic Research PowerCell 12 SE power conditioner, 2 Dedicated 20amp AC lines with Oyaide Duplexes.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-09-2018, 09:23 PM
Blackstone Blackstone is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 224
Default

Helpful responses all. Thanks guys. I just wanted some opinions.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-15-2018, 03:17 PM
ctsooner ctsooner is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Berlin, CT
Posts: 392
Default

I have the same components for now and used the AQ WEL balanced. I used the Niagara balanced for a year or so. I had the single ended in too and it wasn't even close. The noise floor dropped big time and everything was better in balanced mode. It was also a bit louder, so I had to turn it down when in balanced mode. Not scientific, but it didn't need to be as the ears said it all and pretty quickly.

Ayre is all dual differentially balanced adn that's why it sounds best in balance mode. There is a reason the dealers show it this way too.
__________________
Ayre AX-5/Twenty,QX5,MacMini/HynesLPS,Vandersteen Quatro's
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-15-2018, 03:26 PM
Blackstone Blackstone is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 224
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctsooner View Post
I have the same components for now and used the AQ WEL balanced. I used the Niagara balanced for a year or so. I had the single ended in too and it wasn't even close. The noise floor dropped big time and everything was better in balanced mode. It was also a bit louder, so I had to turn it down when in balanced mode. Not scientific, but it didn't need to be as the ears said it all and pretty quickly.



Ayre is all dual differentially balanced adn that's why it sounds best in balance mode. There is a reason the dealers show it this way too.


This seems to be the consensus opinion. Iím gonna give it a shot. It sounds good right now so reluctant to tamper with it but less noise is always a good thing.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-07-2018, 03:53 PM
Ryan Berry Ryan Berry is offline
Industry Affiliation - Ayre CEO
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 16
Default

Hey Blackstone,

There's a few reasons we use balanced over single-ended in Ayre's products. As mentioned, we are fully balanced in every portion of the circuit (we're one of the few companies that do not simply offer globally balanced units, but are also locally balanced in every stage). This helps the circuit reject generated noise from RFI, etc., just as balanced cables are better at rejecting external noise than single-ended cables. If you have unbalanced circuitry anywhere in the system, you have a vulnerability to external noise, so you really want to make sure if your balanced products are truly balanced for this reason, even at the power supply.

We pretty much exclusively listen to our products in balanced mode for this reason when dialing everything in, so if you want what we feel is the best experience with Ayre products, you'll definitely want to put an XLR between them.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-07-2018, 06:33 PM
BillK BillK is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 892
Default

Ryan,

Can you comment on the reason Ayre is one of the few companies that doesn't use locking XLR female jacks? Did Charley just find your current one sounds better, or is it the more pragmatic reason that there wouldn't be room on the back panel for jacks with the lock tabs?
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-07-2018, 09:33 PM
Ryan Berry Ryan Berry is offline
Industry Affiliation - Ayre CEO
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 16
Default

That's actually kind of a funny story. We actually DID use locking female RCA jacks...the same ones that most companies use. But once they arrive, we modified them by cutting the chassis ground leg off of them and pull the locking mechanism out of them...a process that takes a lot of man hours to do.

The reason why we do this though may surprise you. First, the chassis ground path on the metal-faced versions is pretty easy to understand why it was undesirable to use stock. Linking your signal ground right to the chassis as it's bathing in neighboring component's RF fields isn't what you'd want. Having a short ground path there is nice for passing some tests, but terrible for the sound.

The locking pin was another matter entirely. Space is typically not an issue for us...since we're designing the components, we can make them about any size we want and high end Audio isn't about having 75 inputs, just making the fewer inputs a lot better. The issue is that these mechanisms are made pretty much 100% steel with a nickel plating that is all magnetic. The Ayre gear is sensitive enough that it picks up ferrous materials near the signal path, creating a significant negative sound impact. We first discovered this when using ferrite beads...they'd sound great at first, making us want to use more and more, but learned that after a few months/years in the system, really trashed the sound until you replaced them or, better yet, just removed them to avoid knowing that the sound is slowly degrading constantly.

They (Gary Mulder, our current domestic Sales Manager and Charley) later experimented with ferrous materials near the XLR lines and could hear the sound change significantly (for the worse) when such metals were near the signal path. That led to other tests what showed the same in-circuit. For this reason, we're really neurotic about avoiding such materials. All of our wire connectors are custom-made with materials that are non-ferrous, our capacitors and resistors are also custom-made for Ayre to avoid steel and nickel. This means that the components we use have to be hand-made instead of automated in their construction and we're always having to stay ahead on lead times, etc. since they're never stocked parts...nobody else that our vendors use request such parts. We then have the components further treated in other ways that aren't really relevant here that we've found improve the sound. Every screw is stainless or brass, the chassis is aluminum, and even the brackets are stainless steel. Of course stainless is slightly magnetic, but vastly better than steel, nickel, etc. Ultimately, the only real magnetic piece left is the transformer, which there's little we can do about that!

It's a ton of work and expense to deal with, but it's a very small part of what makes the Ayre products sound like they do. I don't mind sharing little secrets like this, as for most companies the amount of work for the payoff would seem insane to go through, so I doubt many are going to use this. I hope that explains in a very long way why we don't use such mechanisms. Also, we've never experienced an XLR connector just spontaneously getting loose without a cable end needing to get replaced anyway...if they can just fall out without being touched, you're going to want to replace the female cable end. Leaving it alone and relying on the mechanism to hold it in place just means that you're likely not getting much of an airtight connection between the surfaces, leading to oxidation over time of the mating surfaces and degrading sound over time. This can happen when you're unplugging or plugging in regularly. You really want a tight connection to minimize the amount of air getting between the surfaces.

Hope that helps!
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-08-2018, 12:44 AM
BillK BillK is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 892
Default

Wow, thanks!!

I knew there was a reason but always got so engrossed in other topics when I had a chance to talk to Charley I never remembered to ask.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-08-2018, 12:45 PM
clpetersen clpetersen is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Boston
Posts: 235
Default 3d parts

Ryan - amazing attention to detail! Impressive.

This might be old news for you, but have you looked into printing the XLR bodies?
I work in a small tech company and we have amazing parts printed regularly for not much money. Materials choices keep growing as well.
Of course you would need the full 3D solid models.
__________________
Main - JRiver/Macbook; Synology; Sonos; OPPO HA-1; Bryston B-cubed; Audio Physic Tempo Plus; Office: iMac running JRiver and Spotify; NAD D3020 driving QAcoustics 3020. Media Room:, Samsung Plasma, Sonos, OPPO 205, ATI N-core driving KEF LS-50's with REL subs; Racks by Salamander; Kids - REGA RP1, Sonos Play5; Summer Shack - Sonos, vintage Pioneer, Dynaudio Special 40's.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Audioaficionado.org tested by Norton Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:16 AM.

Follow @AudioAficionado
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©Copyright 2009-2018 AudioAficionado.org.Privately owned, All Rights Reserved.
Audio Aficionado Sponsors
AudioAficionado Subscriber
AudioAficionado Subscriber
Fortress
Fortress
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Wyred4Sound
Wyred4Sound
Audeze
Audeze
GIK Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
Esoteric
Esoteric
AC Infinity
AC Infinity
JL Audio
JL Audio
Acoustic Sciences Corportation
Acoustic Sciences Corportation
Legend Audio & Video
Legend Audio & Video
Audio by E
Audio by E
Canton
Canton
Bryston
Bryston
WireWorld Cables
WireWorld Cables
Stillpoints
Stillpoints
Bricasti Design
Bricasti Design
Furutech
Furutech
Shunyata Research
Shunyata Research
Accuphase
Accuphase