AudioAficionado.org  

Go Back   AudioAficionado.org > Audio & Video > Power Conditioners

Power Conditioners Voltage regulation to AC Regeneration

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 06-11-2012, 06:38 PM
metaphacts's Avatar
metaphacts metaphacts is offline
Lower Provo River, UT
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Springville, Utah
Posts: 4,470
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrantS
Hi Adam,

There were no claims of "no point to point" wiring when the pictured Hydra was manufactured, which looks to be from 2002-2004. Of course, some wiring will ALWAYS exist in all power distribution products coming from the input IEC. All Hydras now use buss straps connecting outlets and have for quite some time. At the point that we changed to buss straps and no wiring, we began talking about that. There is no longer any wiring coming off of the outlets themselves and that is what's referred to as "no point to point".

I have answered these same questions every time someone decides to post open box pictures and when refrains of "nothing in the box" are repeated. It's a difficult proposition of "damned if you do...", but I feel strongly that uninformed comments should addressed.

I do understand people looking into a Hydra, then comparing that to a box with a ton of parts or a transformer, choke or coil and thinking "wait a minute?" If people look a little deeper at our approach, the materials or parts themselves and how they differ-- and the design credibility behind the products, there might be reluctance to so quickly judge.

First of all, there are filter networks in the boxes in addition to what is clear on the pictures. Currently, all Hydra models have a 30 element filter board in the units. These micro-filters are computer modeled to address the specific frequencies of noise that are common to power supply emissions and the power line. We developed that design point of view. We are also the only manufacturer in the industry using these unique components and approach. Our focus is to improve peak current transfer, eliminate the variable effects of common reactive devices and to provide passive means of eliminating system generated noise.

To DIY any current Hydra would be quite impossible, despite what the Ten Audio gent suggested in what, 2005? BTW, that entire article was written after he asked us for a sample "review" unit and I politely declined to provide one. What was to be a "review" if we went along with his give-me-your-product request, turned into a DIY project of a 2001 product when we declined. He made sure to tell me "we'd pay" for declining the product loan. And what did he make? A Home Depot strip with some capacitors for (his cost) $120? The unit he ripped open retailed for $695. Do the math on that. Time/Labor/Overhead on his power strip? That retail price would be $700 something.

We have used open box units for years at shows. We've posted pictures on our web and described our approach in great detail, which is a passive parts and material quality POV. Putting "more" in the box that could include chokes, coils, capacitors, transformers etc only complicates power delivery and adds performance variables/degradation-- again, from our perspective. If heavy, parts laden power boxes make more sense to some for delivery power to high-fidelity systems, that's fine.

Our pricing model is extremely aggressive. We do not compete (at all) using better dealer margins against competitors. We compete and have succeeded in the market ONLY based on performance, explainable technology and giving more for the money to consumers. Our products resale value, our professional resume and the support we receive from electronics and speaker manufacturers supports that assertion. The reviews from multiple US and overseas publications in wildly varying systems would also indicate we are not just blowing smoke.

This is a competitive business. In an era where real technologies are protected and held secret, we describe and say a lot about what we do, how we do it and what is in our boxes. I travel with clear top Hydras when visiting dealers, so this is hardly an episode of "exposed". It's just unfortunate that so much opinion gets tossed around without any real context.

If people have specific questions they are free to call or write to us and I'd be happy to help.

Regards,

Grant
Shunyata Research


Welcome Grant.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-14-2012, 08:01 PM
Elberoth Elberoth is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Poland
Posts: 1,395
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrantS View Post
Hi Adam,

There were no claims of "no point to point" wiring (...)
Grant, I'm sorry to say that, but there were. I didn't do a print screen of your web page (maybe I should have), but the reviewer from 10audio did a simple copy and paste:

'Shunyata Research adds yet another custom element to the Hydra Model-4 in the form of its silver/rhodium plated CDA 101 copper buss bars. This one-of-a-kind buss system elegantly replaces all point-to-point wiring, improving current linearity and performance. Shunyata Research’s Trident-Defense System makes its first appearance outside of the Hydra Model-8 with Shunyata’s own 7-element Venom filter.'

I posted this question directly at you back in 2005, when this 10audio.com review first appeared and someone posted a thread on Audiogon.

Instead of answering those questions, you decided to contact Audiogon to delete the whole thread (from the perspective, that probably was the only possible solution, as Shunyata got caught red-handed).

And BTW - that quote reminded me, that there was more BS marketing involved - the so called '7 element Venom filter'.

As could see on the image posted below, the '7 element Venom filter' consisted of one Metal-Oxide Varistor and one noise suppression capacitor across each duplex AC receptacle. Two parts from the component (load) perspective, inlet to outlet !

Hydra 4 with '7 element Venom filter' and 'no point to point wiring':


Even if we try to be generous, and count a Carling magnetic circuit breaker a 'filter' (find me an engineer that will claim that a circuit breaker can be considered a 'filter') and then count another capacitor across the second duplex AC receptacle, we come to the total sum of 4 elements (and in reality just 2), not 7 ! So that, as well, was total BS, as correctly pointed in 10audio review.

If the current products indeed "have a 30 element filter board" and use "no point to point" then great ! More power to you.

Make no mistake. I think you make great products. I've always been a great fan of your PCs, I have been using Anacondas CX for years, and now I'm eagier to try the new Cobra PCs. But pls, spare us the BS marketing.

Last edited by Elberoth; 06-14-2012 at 08:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-14-2012, 08:41 PM
Kingsrule Kingsrule is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,358
Default

Awesome!!!
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-15-2012, 07:53 AM
GrantS GrantS is offline
Senior Member

 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 192
Default

Elberoth,

Where to begin. This is looks like your personal game of "gotcha" and from the tone of your comments, one with quite a bit of energy behind it.

I was e-mailed your response. You are not just accusing us of "BS marketing", you are accusing us of lying. We have never misrepresented or lied about _anything_ that goes into the products.

>>>Grant, I'm sorry to say that, but there were. I didn't do a print screen of your web page (maybe I should have), but the reviewer from 10audio did a simple copy and paste: <<<

The Ten Audio gent went out and bought himself what looks like a 2003-2004 Hydra 4 because we wouldn't loan him a current unit. The listed spec's in 2004 would not match our current web-spec at the time for pretty simple reasons. Caelin updated the Hydras, which he did as his concept for the Hydras evolved. Following, is a link to the 2004 page for the unit 10 Audio obviously had.

http://web.archive.org/web/200411040...ey=Hydra4Specs

>>>"Shunyata Research adds yet another custom element to the Hydra Model-4 in the form of its silver/rhodium plated CDA 101 copper buss bars. This one-of-a-kind buss system elegantly replaces all point-to-point wiring, improving current linearity and performance. Shunyata Research’s Trident-Defense System makes its first appearance outside of the Hydra Model-8 with Shunyata’s own 7-element Venom filter."<<<

Yes, the buss straps pictured replace all point to point wiring. The wiring you see there is inlet wiring, which has to be in any and all power units for obvious reasons. That, no one could replace. Point to point wiring in power products refers to the wiring between or from the outlets. I already explained this. As you can see, there are buss straps there replacing the wiring.

Yes, 2005-2007 we were using a 7 element filter. The unit 10 bought for himself was made in '04 or earlier. I don't understand why you think the more complex answer would be true-- us lying about such a trivial matter, than the far more simple truth?

Most people would not know, or more to the point, care whether we put 7, 2 or 20 elements into the units--they just listen. Caelin is a "spec" guy from his days in the military so he wanted the accurate "spec's" listed. They have ALWAYS been accurate to what's been in the products at given times.

>>>"Instead of answering those questions, you decided to contact Audiogon to delete the whole thread (from the perspective, that probably was the only possible solution, as Shunyata got caught red-handed)."<<<

I never had any thread canceled or removed from AudioGon. Moderators there have always been more than capable of doing that themselves. We were not caught red handed, blue-handed or any other hand color, but you are really trying to force it in there.

>>>"As could see on the image posted below, the '7 element Venom filter' consisted of one Metal-Oxide Varistor and one noise suppression capacitor across each duplex AC receptacle. Two parts from the component (load) perspective, inlet to outlet !"<<<

Once again, our page from 2004 listing _exactly_ what was in the Hydras made at that time. This is representative of the unit mr 10 bought used to make his "DIY" article from.

http://web.archive.org/web/200410230...navitemid=2339

Ok, so now I have addressed each of your accusations specifically. If this follows other "internet game" themes, another round of accusations will appear.

Where is the line of accountability for writing all these accusations? You seem angry that I replied and eager to point fingers without all the facts.

"So that, as well, was total BS, as correctly pointed in 10audio review."

This is essentially name calling. I don't know why you see the need for that.

No. Some guy decided on "pay-back" when I declined to loan him a product to review. He purchased an older used unit from who knows where and wrote a DIY article rather than the "review" he called to ask us about writing. It really is that simple.

I am sorry you feel the way you do. I cannot keep chasing the tail of that 8 year old DIY article all over the internet. I've taken a lot of time to answer your very pointed questions and hope this satisfies them, though given the tenor of your post I'm not confident they will.

Regards,

Grant
Shunyata Research

Last edited by GrantS; 06-15-2012 at 08:05 AM. Reason: added links
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-15-2012, 01:55 PM
chessman's Avatar
chessman chessman is offline
From the BAT cave ...
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 11,697
Default

Grant, I appreciate hearing your side of this. Thanks for taking the time to do it.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-15-2012, 08:21 PM
howiebrou's Avatar
howiebrou howiebrou is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Cloud Nine
Posts: 3,977
Default



I'm sure neither side is completely wrong and neither side is completely right! (like most things in life).

A poetic licence in marketing is ubiquitous these days which is why I completely ignore all marketing efforts and rely on my own assessment or that done by those whose ears I trust.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-15-2012, 08:37 PM
DonBattles's Avatar
DonBattles DonBattles is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Northern California
Posts: 2,475
Default

My first thought is that the OP has a definite agenda in mind here, good or bad you can decide. As for the 10Audio DIY power strip I read that several years ago and made one myself and it was a total POS. My work/wiring skills are very solid but you are all free to think what you like. As for my experience with Shunyata I'm happy. I'm running a Hydra 8 and power cords as well and to my ears they are better than anything I had before, which were either "stock" cable or Kimber Power Kords. As for Grants posts I thank him for taking the time to adress these concerns and am satisfied to that end
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]2-Channel System: Luxman L590Aii, D-05 CD/SACD ,VPI Classic 3 (Rolling Stone photo shoot table), VPI SDS, Shelter 501 MKII , Wilson Audio Duette,Shunyata Denali 6000T, Anaconda Zitron, Alpha Digital, and Black Mamba power cables, Tara Labs RSC Air 2 speaker wire, RSC Prime M1 IC's.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-15-2012, 08:49 PM
MyPal MyPal is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,899
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by howiebrou


I'm sure neither side is completely wrong and neither side is completely right! (like most things in life).

A poetic licence in marketing is ubiquitous these days which is why I completely ignore all marketing efforts and rely on my own assessment or that done by those whose ears I trust.
Nothing worse than marketing misrepresentation & inventive slogans that mean nothing. The pharmaceutical industry is quite inventive when it comes to their terminology hype as well. The marketing story needs to be properly backed with detailed technical specifications that are accurately descriptive of the penultimate production release which is currently in shipment. Without concise documentation, it is no wonder manufacturer's product is treated with suspicion. This is especially the case when product is not readily available at retail level & the tactile and/or retail experience is not accessible until several weeks after the customer hands over their credit card. This is the situation with Shunyata, although Grant had stated in another thread that they are taking measures to address this.

I noticed Shunyata have just published some basic specs on their power cables but are yet to do this for their signal cables.

Last edited by MyPal; 06-15-2012 at 09:26 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 06-18-2012, 12:39 PM
Elberoth Elberoth is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Poland
Posts: 1,395
Default

Grant,

Thank you for posting the link to the 2004 Shunyata page. At least everyone can now compare the marketing slogans to the open Hydra 6 for himself.

On your web page, you boldly claimed 'no point-point wiring':



This is plain and simple. No ifs and buts. It doesn't say 'does not include AC inlet wiring', or 'does not include circuit breaker-duplex outlets wiring', or 'does not include duplex outlets interconnecting wiring' - nothing. Reading those words, the customer has the right to expect that ALL point-point wiring was removed in favour of solid buss bars.

Now, this is what I found inside the Hydra 6:



Everything is almost entirely hardwired ! The exact opposite ! To tell you the truth, If I wasn't really watchful, I wouldn't probably even have noticed those tiny 'solid silver power distribution busses' !

That 'solid silver power distribution buss' is in fact a tiny piece of sth which looks like copper (!) connecting duplex outlets together. Everything else is point-point wiring !


OK, but lets move on.

There is another claim, that I just noticed that is also far from the truth - 'each outlet individually filtered':



In practice, outlets are filtered in pairs, as there is a single common capacitor for each duplex outlet ! (the cap is that black square object behind the copper *ahem* silver buss bars)



To claim that 'each outlet is individually filtered', you would have to put a cap next to EACH outlet, link the Audience is doing:



In other words, for 6 outlets you would have to use 6 capacitors, not 3.

Regarding the element count that form the Venom filter. Indeed, the 2004 web page describes them as 5-element, and on 2005 web page the Venom filter is described as 10-element. It seems that the the specs on all Hydras has changed in 2005, from Hydra 2 to Hydra 8.

As you are such an open company and proudly display the innards of your products during the shows (your own words), me - and I guess many other audiophiles as well - would be much relieved if you publish an image of 2005 or later Hydra 6 to show us the differencies and back up those claims.

Also, as the model designation didn't change, I think you owe it to the owners, to you publish the serial # for each Hydra model after which the design change took place, so that everyone could verify if he has say Hydra 2 mk I or Hydra 2 mk II (improved).

Last edited by Elberoth; 06-18-2012 at 12:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06-18-2012, 12:49 PM
MyPal MyPal is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,899
Default

I would like confirmation on whether the outlets are filtered in pairs or individually for the current 2011-2012 Hydra line, then you also have the additional two outlets for the Triton Euro version. How different is the Euro version to the rest of the world apart from the input voltage?

If they are filtered in pairs, then there should be a recommended placement / plugging of the various components (i.e. amp, pre, source etc)...or doesn't it make any difference? I am going to split off my amps into separate Cyclops when they arrive & use Talos for the rest of my gear.

Having the plugs grouped in pairs on the Talos means that some plugs like the Furutech Flux are a tight fit given the large barrel diameters.


Triton Euro

Triton

Talos

Last edited by MyPal; 06-18-2012 at 01:17 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Audioaficionado.org tested by Norton Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:20 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©Copyright 2009-2023 AudioAficionado.org.Privately owned, All Rights Reserved.
Audio Aficionado Sponsors
AudioAficionado Subscriber
AudioAficionado Subscriber
Inspire By Dennis Had
Inspire By Dennis Had
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Wyred4Sound
Wyred4Sound
Dragonfire Acoustics
Dragonfire Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
Esoteric
Esoteric
AC Infinity
AC Infinity
JL Audio
JL Audio
Add Powr
Add Powr
Accuphase - Soulution
Accuphase - Soulution
Audio by E
Audio by E
Canton
Canton
Bryston
Bryston
WireWorld Cables
WireWorld Cables
Stillpoints
Stillpoints
Bricasti Design
Bricasti Design
Furutech
Furutech
Shunyata Research
Shunyata Research
Legend Audio & Video
Legend Audio & Video