Bryston SP3 Preamp-Processor

[James Tanner - Bryston]

Originally Posted by a2k2000

I am long time owner of the Bryston SP3 and I have been very happy with the unit. However the player has become outdated over the years with advances in both hardware as well as software. I am at the crossroads whether it makes sense upgrading the player or replacing it and your answers to the following questions would greatly help that decision.


1. I currently have a Oppo BDP-103 and was planning to upgrade to the Oppo UDP-205 which has the latest Sabre DAC along with support for processing Dolby Atmos. If i upgrade the Bryston to the latest HDMI 2.0 Board I should be able to send the decoded PCM track to the Bryston which I presume the Bryston will be able to process though I might lose the Atmos coding. Is there any future plan or capability to enable the processor to decode Dolby atmos or do the cost benefits and design limitations far outweigh he effort?

2. After upgrading to the latest HDMI board while playing a SACD can I send a direct bitstream output to Bryston HDMI input? If it does accept a bitstream input can the DAC in the Bryston do a direct DSD to Analog conversion without doing an intermediary DSD to PCM conversion(I am aware I will lose distance and crossover processing if I go that route).

3. If the above is not not possible then if I upgrade to the latest USB input can the DACS handle a direct DSD to analog conversion? What is the maximum sampling rate for multichannel and DSD the USB input can accept?

4. If the DACs cannot do a direct DSD to analog conversion then what is the maximum PCM sampling rate for multichannel and DSD the DACs can process?

Hi

I will ask the design engineer but for number 1 there is no way to make the SP3 handle Atmos.

james

[James Tanner - Bryston]

1. Yes


2. Maximum DSD is 2x (128) DoP and 2x (128) Native. Maximum PCM is 192k 24-bits.


Note that the PCM limitation is due to the main DSP board in the SP3 (DAE6D) not USBX. The XMOS chip can decode up to 768k PCM and up to DSD 4x but this is currently disabled because of the above considerations. Maximum DSD limit of "2x" is determined by the DAC chip in the USBX board.


There is a separate 2 channel DAC chip in the USBX (XMOS) board that can candle DSD 1x and 2x, and PCM up to 192k/24 bits. The dac chip is similar (in terms of performance) to the one that the main DSP board in the SP3 (called DAE6D, by MDS) is using.


When the USB source outputs PCM, it is routed digitally using the so called I2S bus, from the USBX to the DAE6D board and processed there, same as with the old USB board.


When the USB source outputs DSD it is decoded by XMOS chip and sent to an on-board DAC chip (in the USBX board) and then sent as 2-channels analog signal to the main DSP board, using one of the extra cable, from the USBX to the DAE6D board and processed there as analog-to-analog to "surround" or "passthru".


Stan
Bryston

[James Tanner - Bryston]

RE: 1. I currently have a Oppo BDP-103 and was planning to upgrade to the Oppo UDP-205 which has the latest Sabre DAC along with support for processing Dolby Atmos. If i upgrade the Bryston to the latest HDMI 2.0 Board I should be able to send the decoded PCM track to the Bryston which I presume the Bryston will be able to process though I might lose the Atmos coding. Is there any future plan or capability to enable the processor to decode Dolby atmos or do the cost benefits and design limitations far outweigh he effort?

We are not ready yet for Atmos and still debating benefits versus cost and development time. Since Atmos involves many more output channels, it will require a complete redesign of a sound processor rather than an upgrade.


RE: 2. After upgrading to the latest HDMI board while playing a SACD can I send a direct bitstream output to Bryston HDMI input? If it does accept a bitstream input can the DAC in the Bryston do a direct DSD to Analog conversion without doing an intermediary DSD to PCM conversion(I am aware I will lose distance and crossover processing if I go that route).

No you do not need the very latest HDMI board, as long as you have a 4K board it will support direct DSD. You will need a full USBX upgrade do be able to do that. You can use existing HDMI card (8 4K input but only one 4K HDCP2.2 input) that is being shipped right now (since late 2015).

The new USBX upgrade intercepts DSD bitstream off HDMI connection (as long as the player supports this mode) and SP2+USBX will decode it into 2 channel analog and/or will also be able to recreate surround modes (and apply speaker distance correction, crossover and bass management) if your SP3 has the latest mainboard revision 5 (since late 2016), or 2ch only in "passthru" mode and no processing if earlier mainboards.


RE: 3. If the above is not not possible then if I upgrade to the latest USB input can the DACS handle a direct DSD to analog conversion? What is the maximum sampling rate for multichannel and DSD the USB input can accept?

USBX upgrade does not decode multichannel streams, only 2 channel PCM 44.1k 16-24 bits up to 192k 16-24 bits, and 2 channel DSD 1x Native and DoP, and DSD 2x Native and DoP (DoP=DSD over PCM).

Only HDMI accepts multichannel formats, however even a 2 channel source can have surround and bass channels re-created by the SP3 digital signal processor using Dolby or DTS algorithms.


RE: 4. If the DACs cannot do a direct DSD to analog conversion then what is the maximum PCM sampling rate for multichannel and DSD the DACs can process?

Maximum accepted PCM rate is 192k and up to 24 bits, which is determined by the DAC chips and DSP processing used in the SP3. Multichannel PCM, Dolby and DTS formats are supported through HDMI inputs.

[a2k2000]

Thank you very much for the detailed response Mr.Tanner. You and your company stand a testimony to what excellent customer service is all about. I do have one question just to make sure I am reading things correctly as I was a bit confused after reading your USB upgrade brochure which states

"SP-3 with version 2/3 or 4 main board replaced with version 5 main board can beupgrade to STEREO plus SURROUND MODES PCM 192/24 as well as STEREOplus SURROUND MODES DSD for $1500"

My unit is one of early ones manufactured which does not have a 4K board. My setup is such where I send the 4K output directly to my projector from the video HDMI out of my Oppo and the audio out via the second HDMI out to the Bryston's HDMI input. (The Oppo is the only input source to the Bryston. I am kind of using the processor more more it's superb preamp abilities than anything else).

1. Upgrade it to the latest 4K board (1000USD) along with the full USBX upgrade with the main board 5 upgrade(1500USD). If I go this route it is clear to me that if I send in a DSD 2 Channel bitstream through the HDMI port on the Bryston then the bryson is capable of decoding it by sending it to the USBX. What happens when I send in a multichannel DSD bitstream input to the Bryston through the HDMI input port. Is it capable of sending this directly to the USBX board and can the DAC on the USB board do a direct Multichannel DSD to analog conversion.

2. If the HDMI input cannot accept and process multichannel DSD then can I go the route of just doing a full USBX upgrade for 1500USD and then send in a multichannel DSD bitstream via the USB input. In this case again can the DAC on the USB board do a direct Multichannel DSD to analog conversion.

3. If the DAC on the USBx board is incapable of doing a direct DSD to analog conversion is my assumption correct that it will convert the DSD to 192KHz PCM and then do the analog conversion.

[Rod#S]

Although the SP3 isn't for me I commend Bryston for continuing to provide upgrades to a product that's been around for a number of years now. Many manufacturers simply abandon their products as technology changes in order to force customers to replace and upgrade to a new model. With this USB upgrade and the talked about possible HDMI board upgrade after MDS eventually releases it for manufacturers you are indeed keeping owners very happy.

[gbaby]

Originally Posted by Rod#S

Although the SP3 isn't for me I commend Bryston for continuing to provide upgrades to a product that's been around for a number of years now. Many manufacturers simply abandon their products as technology changes in order to force customers to replace and upgrade to a new model. With this USB upgrade and the talked about possible HDMI board upgrade after MDS eventually releases it for manufacturers you are indeed keeping owners very happy.

I am happy with mine ATMOS be damned. You should own one.

[James Tanner - Bryston]

Originally Posted by a2k2000

Thank you very much for the detailed response Mr.Tanner. You and your company stand a testimony to what excellent customer service is all about. I do have one question just to make sure I am reading things correctly as I was a bit confused after reading your USB upgrade brochure which states

"SP-3 with version 2/3 or 4 main board replaced with version 5 main board can beupgrade to STEREO plus SURROUND MODES PCM 192/24 as well as STEREOplus SURROUND MODES DSD for $1500"

My unit is one of early ones manufactured which does not have a 4K board. My setup is such where I send the 4K output directly to my projector from the video HDMI out of my Oppo and the audio out via the second HDMI out to the Bryston's HDMI input. (The Oppo is the only input source to the Bryston. I am kind of using the processor more more it's superb preamp abilities than anything else).

1. Upgrade it to the latest 4K board (1000USD) along with the full USBX upgrade with the main board 5 upgrade(1500USD). If I go this route it is clear to me that if I send in a DSD 2 Channel bitstream through the HDMI port on the Bryston then the bryson is capable of decoding it by sending it to the USBX. What happens when I send in a multichannel DSD bitstream input to the Bryston through the HDMI input port. Is it capable of sending this directly to the USBX board and can the DAC on the USB board do a direct Multichannel DSD to analog conversion.

2. If the HDMI input cannot accept and process multichannel DSD then can I go the route of just doing a full USBX upgrade for 1500USD and then send in a multichannel DSD bitstream via the USB input. In this case again can the DAC on the USB board do a direct Multichannel DSD to analog conversion.

3. If the DAC on the USBx board is incapable of doing a direct DSD to analog conversion is my assumption correct that it will convert the DSD to 192KHz PCM and then do the analog conversion.

Re: What happens when I send in a multichannel DSD bitstream input to the Bryston through the HDMI input port. Is it capable of sending this directly to the USBX board and can the DAC on the USB board do a direct Multichannel DSD to analog conversion.

Only 2 channel DSD sources are supported in HDMI and in USB modes (in both cases DSD stream is processed in the USBX board). The reason fo 2 channels is that the USBX board has got 2 channel dedicated DSD DACs, not 8. If the player tries to send multichannel DSD through HDMI then the "EDID" protocol will prevent it forcing the player to downmix it to DSD 2ch or to PCM.

If you try to output multichannel DSD through USB connection, then the Bryston USB driver in the PC will typically reject it reporting error message.

Note that you can re-create multiple speaker channels out of the 2 channel DSD stream using Surround Modes in the SP3, however, you need to choose option 1 (Mainboard R5.0 upgrade) to be able to do that. But, you can always re-create surround modes when playing 2ch USB PCM, even without the Mainboard upgrade.

Re: In this case again can the DAC on the USB board do a direct Multichannel DSD to analog conversion.
No, there is 2 channel DSD DAC in the new USBX board that handles all DSD from HDMI and from USB connections. That 2ch DAC converts DSD stream directly to analog.

RE: 3. If the DAC on the USBx board is incapable of doing a direct DSD to analog conversion is my assumption correct that it will convert the DSD to 192KHz PCM and then do the analog conversion.

USBX DAC is capable of direct DSD conversion to analog but 2 channels only.

USBX board (the on board XMOS processor) will not convert anything to PCM, it will just decode anything that comes in if it can.

The only cases when a conversion to PCM may take place, is done by the player outputting through HDMI, if EDID protocol excludes a particular format that is not supported - then the player such as Oppo etc will downconvert that to PCM.
Also, when Bryston USB driver (in a PC) rejects a certain format such as DSD 4x or multichannel DSD then the player application software may decide to down-convert it to PCM but that is application software dependent. This behavior is user-configurable, for example in JRiver Media Player software. I found that many other applications will just stop playing and will display a message.

Stan Bleszynski
Bryston

[a2k2000]

Again thank you very much for the quick response.

[hdvidguy]

I played a 4K disk yesterday and set the audio on the Oppo player to DTS X. On the SP3 it showed DTSHD MA 7.1.

What happens in the SP3, does it down convert DTS or passes the audio thru? Is there any advantage of selecting DTS X audio on the 4K disk?

[James Tanner - Bryston]

The receiver capabilities are send back to the source player using "EDID" protocol along the HDMI cable. Since SP3 does not support DTS-X, the player automatically down-converted it to DTS HD Master. This is normal way of handling the multitudes of the formats and is the biggest advantage of the HDMI standard.

Stan