You don't have free will, but don't worry.

[PHC1]

I myself, being neither a physicist, nor a philosopher do hold the belief that the world, universe and our very existence is deterministic. We are active participants in a pre-determined theater of life that must play out.

Why? Putting physics, philosophical and even religious or atheistic biases aside, it all seems very simple to me...

If we and other life organisms around us truly had Free Will, then all the survival mechanisms that are either learned/acquired or are instincts passed on by the genome of the parents in the animal kingdom would simply work flawlessly. They don't.

All animals and humans are equally likely to succumb to events outside their free will and determinism to the opposite or "self preservation". Our objective is to live and to pass our genes so life can continue and we are very well in tune with self preservation. Not to mention the inherent reminders that things that cause us are harm are extremely painful and to be avoided at all cost!

Why is it then that the events outside our minds that are very much focused on self preservation and constantly calculating the odds of surviving the next action both consciously and subconsciously fail spectacularly? Because they must....

Life would not be possible if Free Will was truly Free as that would mean an inevitable hierarchy which would eventually preclude life from progressing forward.

A perfect predator and a perfect defensive prey? One is perfect at hunting, the other has perfected the game of camouflages and predator avoidance? One of them will have to lose or both die (balance in nature)....

No one wants to get sick and no one truly wants the world to blow up. We have Free Will but evidently that is not enough because both scenarios can and do happen? Something is wrong with Free Will then?

[PHC1]

If this topic has grabbed your curiosity, this is the long version video that covers a whole bunch of various opinions and views on this very topic. Have fun with it.

https://youtu.be/9uRTjfhIf4M

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by SCAudiophile

Infallible does not equate to prescient.

God is said to be all knowing...that also does not necessarily mean prescient. It can be very temporal in scope.

There are many misinterpreted scripture passages that lead to such fallacies. Of course "scripture" of which there are a multitude, hundreds in fact stretching back centuries, all claiming to be "God's word" were all written by the most self serving organism in the universe,....

Man.

There are even more philosophical debates that have raged for centuries.

Very good post but I cannot comment on it as per the request of keeping religion out of the Forum. No Free Will?

[Charles]

I support philosophical and religious discussion. Ivan is a great guy for allowing these types of discussions.

Best

Charles

[Audiofan1]

Free to choose between the two choices given is the extent of what "they" have determined to be "Free Will". No where is it written you have "free will" which would imply the ability to fully carry out the desire and purpose of one's heart!

I only know of one who has that Ability

[SCAudiophile]

Originally Posted by PHC1

Very good post but I cannot comment on it as per the request of keeping religion out of the Forum. No Free Will?

Thought it was all open as this was a subsequent post you made;

"If God is infallible and knows the future perfectly, then God knows what I will do at every moment from my birth to my death. So where's my free will?"

Will skip religion in future replies...[emoji2]

[Charles]

In regards to "free will" it seems to me that the better question concerns human responsibility. Are we responsible for our actions? I could make a very compelling argument that we are not. However, if I told it to a judge after robbing a bank I don't think he would listen. It is only with free will that we can be held responsible. I had a choice: Do I go in and take the money or do I do honest work?

So if you believe you are responsible for your action, then whether you admit it you believe in free will and choice. Our legal system is based on free will because it holds us responsible for our actions.

I would recommend Eric Kandel's book "In Search of Memory". Dr. Kandel won the Noble Prize in 2000 for Physiology and Medicine. The book is his biography and it is excellent. He lays in it the foundation for modern neuroscience and psychiatry.

I would like to ask an open question: WHAT IS MEMORY?

How would you define memory? Memory and understanding memory is extremely important to understanding reality. Based on Dr. Kandel's excellent and convincing work, it is very difficult to make an argument in favor of free will and human responsibility. The book also provides an excellent snapshot of his perspective on WWII. A tremendous mix of history, science and understanding the mind of a scientist, his results that won him the Noble Prize, and then the extrapolation of his work to his specialty.

I'm not selling AA short but you probably won't read it (I hope you do), so I'll give you a sample. He proved conclusively that changes in the human brain correlated to our behavior. If I am born with an "evil" brain how can I be held responsible? If I have a "good" brain and get shot through it and my personality changes to that of a thief, how am I responsible? And so on.

Best

Charles

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by SCAudiophile

Thought it was all open as this was a subsequent post you made;

"If God is infallible and knows the future perfectly, then God knows what I will do at every moment from my birth to my death. So where's my free will?"

Will skip religion in future replies...[emoji2]

In the context of a scientific-philosophical post, some religious views on the topic from the same "series of videos" was acceptable in my mind.

I quoted the topic of the video for disclosure of what it would be. The video was really more philosophical with the input from those who are knowledgeable on the subject than religious in nature but it is a subject that often can derail quickly if not kept in check.

I personally have no problem discussing religious views as long as it is done tastefully and with respect to others but given the nature of such a topic.

The topic does have a track record along with a few other topics that crosses the boundaries very quickly and we have tried before.

The video was certainly thought provoking I thought and especially that different views and differences of opinion on the same question were presented. Discussing it in detail however is outside the rules we have set for AA.

[radio times]

Personality change can come from an external to a finite humanoid source, I discovered. And I exercised free will by going hi fi today. More to follow after burn in.

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by Charles

In regards to "free will" it seems to me that the better question concerns human responsibility. Are we responsible for our actions? I could make a very compelling argument that we are not. However, if I told it to a judge after robbing a bank I don't think he would listen. It is only with free will that we can be held responsible. I had a choice: Do I go in and take the money or do I do honest work?

So if you believe you are responsible for your action, then whether you admit it you believe in free will and choice. Our legal system is based on free will because it holds us responsible for our actions.

I would recommend Eric Kandel's book "In Search of Memory". Dr. Kandel won the Noble Prize in 2000 for Physiology and Medicine. The book is his biography and it is excellent. He lays in it the foundation for modern neuroscience and psychiatry.

I would like to ask an open question: WHAT IS MEMORY?

How would you define memory? Memory and understanding memory is extremely important to understanding reality. Based on Dr. Kandel's excellent and convincing work, it is very difficult to make an argument in favor of free will and human responsibility. The book also provides an excellent snapshot of his perspective on WWII. A tremendous mix of history, science and understanding the mind of a scientist, his results that won him the Noble Prize, and then the extrapolation of his work to his specialty.

I'm not selling AA short but you probably won't read it (I hope you do), so I'll give you a sample. He proved conclusively that changes in the human brain correlated to our behavior. If I am born with an "evil" brain how can I be held responsible? If I have a "good" brain and get shot through it and my personality changes to that of a thief, how am I responsible? And so on.

Best

Charles

Charles excellent points. It is a fascinating subject and has been problematic for philosophers as well as scientists who ponder such questions. What is consciousness, what is memory, what is a brain, is a brain a quantum computer, etc.... What is REALITY? Are we hallucinating reality? The list goes on...

Books are great but a book presents the view of one single person and is a time consuming task.

Youtube to the rescue... With one quick search, I have access to the particular topic, with easily digestible, 8-20 min videos dealing with the particular topic from the brilliant minds of scientists involved with such work.

Of course even scientists disagree. Who is right? Who will emerge victorious? That's the beauty of a subject that science and philosophers are trying to unlock the secrets of while taking us along for the journey.


Of course books have their place. I love to read. I read classic literature and hardly ever cutting edge scientific books. Why? Because it all changes too often... By the time I will finish a book, I will see a new theory emerge or a new experiment in place or a even a new discovery.

The Old Man and the Sea will NOT change. Thank God. "What is memory"? That WILL change.


Why bother then? The topic we are discussing here was presented from at least half a dozen of different scientists and philosophers and each had his/her unique view and opinion on it. In the time it would take me to read a few chapters, I would have heard the opinion of at least 3 scientists.


Example:

"We all wish for better memories. But how are memories stored? For all our neuroscience, we still do not know even the level in the brain where memories are stored—from inside neurons to long brain circuits. We do know that the synapses between neurons in the brain are critical, but how those chemical changes mean a specific memory remains a mystery."

Dr. Robert Bilder is Professor of Psychiatry & Biobehavioral Sciences, and Professor of Psychology at UCLA. He is also Chief of Medical Psychology - Neuropsychology and Director of the Tennenbaum Center at the Semel Institute for Neuroscience and Human Behavior. https://youtu.be/ZF9E1ulxtUI



Raymond C. Tallis is a a retired physician and neuroscientist. His resume boasts titles like philosopher, poet, and novelist. He is also a member of the Academy of Medical Sciences, the Royal College of Physicians and Royal Society of Arts. https://youtu.be/XMiNcn6kxzI