Welcome to Caelin Gabriel

[rlw3]

It is my understanding that double blind tests have serious flaws. If the length of time during each hearing is too short they brain can not decode differences well. Then there is the problem of long term vs short term ownership and use which we all know changes perception in unforeseen ways. If you love a component it may be years till you hear it's flaws, but then you finally do.

[bachrocks]

Caelin,

I have another question. I am trying to decide between your Hydra and Hydra AV unit. Of course, there is no substitute for listening to these in my system--and I will pursue this with a trial from your Thailand dealer if allowed--but until then, I'd like to hear your thought.

Considering the Hydra with a Typhoon as the ideal--I'm a teacher so let's say it gets a perfect score, 100%--how would you grade the Hydra alone and the Hydra AV?

I love the thought of the more economical AV unit, but if you feel as a listener of music it is much better to spend more for the Hydra, I'll seriously consider that.

What is difficult is that I get conflicting advice. Some say the Hydra AV and others the Hydra. If it's not too much trouble--and I realize per some of your comments that depending on my system and electrical situation, it just is not possible to say definitively--I'd like to hear your "score" for the three options.

thanks,
ron

[Crion]

Bach, are you really asking about the relative performance between: ?
1. Hydra Triton+Typhon
2. Hydra Triton
3. Hydra AV

I would simply say the only reason to go Hydra AV is if you are not interested in the Typhon.

[Glisse]

Originally Posted by rlw3

It is my understanding that double blind tests have serious flaws. If the length of time during each hearing is too short they brain can not decode differences well. Then there is the problem of long term vs short term ownership and use which we all know changes perception in unforeseen ways. If you love a component it may be years till you hear it's flaws, but then you finally do.

I agree with much of this. What surprised me was not that Mike Segal's friend couldn't hear any difference in a double blind test between lamp cord and audiophile cables, but that he continues to be satisfied by the performance of lamp cord over the long term. If he and Mike have such similar systems, with high end speakers and DACs, I am surprised he doesn't hear the difference between their two otherwise similar systems that Mike clearly does.

BTW, I though the discussion between Caelin and Mike was very civilised. All too rare in this field - chapeau

[bachrocks]

Thanks again for your help, Crion

Yes, I'm still processing all the information about these power conditioners, trying to understand as best I can their relative performance qualities. And I do understand that H+T>H>H-AV, but I wonder, based on the opinion of their creator, how different their relative performances might be in a typical home environment.

I know I'm asking a difficult question--and I realize that I need to hear these to truly know how they rate against each other in my home with my ears--but it would be helpful for me to hear Caelin's opinion. If this is not possible, I understand, but as a potential customer, it would be helpful, especially, if I can't bring these home or compare them at the store because, well, I am a shy person and it always takes a bit of courage to do this, and my Thai is not so great.

thanks,
ron

[CGabriel]

Originally Posted by bachrocks

Caelin,

I have another question. I am trying to decide between your Hydra and Hydra AV unit. Of course, there is no substitute for listening to these in my system--and I will pursue this with a trial from your Thailand dealer if allowed--but until then, I'd like to hear your thought.

Considering the Hydra with a Typhoon as the ideal--I'm a teacher so let's say it gets a perfect score, 100%--how would you grade the Hydra alone and the Hydra AV?

I love the thought of the more economical AV unit, but if you feel as a listener of music it is much better to spend more for the Hydra, I'll seriously consider that.

What is difficult is that I get conflicting advice. Some say the Hydra AV and others the Hydra. If it's not too much trouble--and I realize per some of your comments that depending on my system and electrical situation, it just is not possible to say definitively--I'd like to hear your "score" for the three options.

thanks,
ron

I know that it is difficult to make equipment choices in a sea of exaggerated claims, especially when you don't have easy access to a good local dealer to make the evaluation for yourself. That being said, the is NO substitute for first hand experience. Reviews, professional endorsements and customer reviews can lead you to the products that may excel in the marketplace but you should always do an evaluation in the context of your own system and personal preference.

I guess the simple answer is that the Hydra Triton and Typhon represents our state-of-the-art reference. If that is your desire then that is what you should buy. As with most top shelf references the combination has several comsiderations. The first would be cost - it is relatively expensive. The second would be inconvenience as they are large and heavy and they require a good platform to sit on, just as a high quality amplifier would.

Let me tell you the Hydra AV story. The Hydra Triton/Typhon is used by many of the world's top reviewers. Almost without exception, each complained that they had so many components that there was no room left on the rack(s) to place the Hydras. So they would tip the Hydra onto its anodyzed, brushed aluminum faceplate and put it behind the rack. Understand, that these are like my children and this just seemed like abuse . So instead of fretting about it, I saw that there was a need for a reference quality distributor that was intended to go behind the rack. Limit the performance compromises but the keep the dimensions such that the unit could fit behind a beautiful entertainment cabinet without pushing it out into the room was the imperative. That is how the AV was created and what its intended purpose was.

Personally I use the Triton/Typhon in my dedicated reference room where I have plenty of space and where decor is not an issue. And I use a Hydra AV in the living room because it is small and unobtrusive.

Many of the members here have first hand experiences that may be different than my own.

cg

[mgbaron]

Originally Posted by CGabriel

I know that it is difficult to make equipment choices in a sea of exaggerated claims, especially when you don't have easy access to a good local dealer to make the evaluation for yourself. That being said, the is NO substitute for first hand experience. Reviews, professional endorsements and customer reviews can lead you to the products that may excel in the marketplace but you should always do an evaluation in the context of your own system and personal preference.

I guess the simple answer is that the Hydra Triton and Typhon represents our state-of-the-art reference. If that is your desire then that is what you should buy. As with most top shelf references the combination has several comsiderations. The first would be cost - it is relatively expensive. The second would be inconvenience as they are large and heavy and they require a good platform to sit on, just as a high quality amplifier would.

Let me tell you the Hydra AV story. The Hydra Triton/Typhon is used by many of the world's top reviewers. Almost without exception, each complained that they had so many components that there was no room left on the rack(s) to place the Hydras. So they would tip the Hydra onto its anodyzed, brushed aluminum faceplate and put it behind the rack. Understand, that these are like my children and this just seemed like abuse . So instead of fretting about it, I saw that there was a need for a reference quality distributor that was intended to go behind the rack. Limit the performance compromises but the keep the dimensions such that the unit could fit behind a beautiful entertainment cabinet without pushing it out into the room was the imperative. That is how the AV was created and what its intended purpose was.

Personally I use the Triton/Typhon in my dedicated reference room where I have plenty of space and where decor is not an issue. And I use a Hydra AV in the living room because it is small and unobtrusive.

Many of the members here have first hand experiences that may be different than my own.

cg

Does the Hydra Talos offer fewer "compromises" than the AV for those of us that have space for one rack unit or are the equivalent?

[Msegal]

Originally Posted by Glisse

I agree with much of this. What surprised me was not that Mike Segal's friend couldn't hear any difference in a double blind test between lamp cord and audiophile cables, but that he continues to be satisfied by the performance of lamp cord over the long term. If he and Mike have such similar systems, with high end speakers and DACs, I am surprised he doesn't hear the difference between their two otherwise similar systems that Mike clearly does.:

I need to clarify, my friend has NOT done the double blind test he is only referring to other tests reported on the web and in old magazine articles. His contention is that he knows electrical physics and there is "no way" that any expensive cable can sound better than inexpensive cable as long as the gauge is adequate to the task.

There is no logic I can use to convince him otherwise and I have no intention of wasting my time with a double blind trial of my own. As mentioned above there are inherent flaws in a double blind trial of determining what I would call "auditory significance" to audio cables, which is similar yet different from statistical significance.

I am trained as a physician to dismiss poorly designed trials, non blinded trials, clinically and statistically insignificant trials and any other variations in data which fail to meet "rigorous standards". I am confronted with my own belief that cables make a difference but a lack of statistical evidence to verify the same. I very much appreciate the recent tests Mr. Gabriel has done to demonstrate the difference of their ZTron technology compared to non-ZTron cables yet I am confronted with a lack of evidence supporting that this technology is audibly significant, that is except for my personal experience which is worthless to anyone but me.

Unfortunately, my friend has taken the null hypothesis (which I must confess is valid until proven otherwise) that cables make no difference. I do wonder if it is possible to design a ZTron cable with the ability to disengage the circuit to run double blind tests.
My friends dogma is no better than mine. I must honestly contend that I do not "know" without any doubt whether cables make an auditory difference. I would contend "how could they not"?

Why can no one disprove the null hypothesis? Is it really that difficult? There must be a simple straight forward test to allay all doubt, yet it seems to elude our abilities. I would suggest that cable companies create an independent body to solve some of these concerns, communicate this information to the public and create a data base or body of scientific research, studies, facts and principles which could be easily cited in their design philosophy........ and while you are at it how about some world peace!

Mike S.

[chessman]

The simple test would be to swap his speaker cables without telling him and then have him listen to his own system just for enjoyment. When he goes "Wow!" you will know.

[Grasshopper]

I thought I'd chime in as I had been previously pretty skeptical about cabling.

My skepticism is rooted in my frugality, more than my professional background (I work in commercial real estate, investments, etc...not an engineer).

I'd read many of the opinions online and was discouraged at the great debate (and confused).

I fully appreciate the AA forum as it is very civilized with the many opinions on this and other subjects. I was very surprised to witness how heated the "cable debate" would become on other forums and the web abroad.

I had heard many cables in my system and didn't find significant changes...to my ear, although i heard SOME changes.

Then i heard the Shunyata Cobra Zitron balanced cable from my source to my amp. It was crazy, and very significant! (frankly i was disappointed because I knew it was going to cost me some more dough, but it brought me closer to the music for sure).

In a world of science and seeking "proof", it seems at odds with the pursuit of music. Sure there are ways to analyze music/gear/etc., but for many, there is another level. When the 1's and 0's (in my case anyway) go through some process (one I really have no idea about, nor care to have a deep understanding of) and out comes music. (I do fully respect and admire those who know how it all works by the way. It just won't be me as it tends to make my brain hurt)

I love the emotional connection to music personally. In my experience, it's comparable to love or other emotions that make life worth living.

I bring this up, because it would seem counterintuitive for one to furnish "proof" that he or she loves someone. If it brings a smile to your face and sounds good to you (1's and 0's aside), its a winner. The same way that on a first date many look for a spark, something within (no spreadsheet or calculator necessary).

As to a $90,000 system run by lamp cord, if it makes a guy happy...win for him. If the same guy were willing to try some cabling, I'd be interested to hear what the same person would think of playing with the zitrons in his system (*disclosure* i'm not a Shunyata fanboy, nor do i own any shunyata gear. It's the one cable that improved sound enough that I suppose I would save up for some one day).

Again, in the end, music is like love... No "proof" necessary. gear either moves you or not. If it moves you...mission accomplished

My two cents.

Originally Posted by Msegal

I need to clarify, my friend has NOT done the double blind test he is only referring to other tests reported on the web and in old magazine articles. His contention is that he knows electrical physics and there is "no way" that any expensive cable can sound better than inexpensive cable as long as the gauge is adequate to the task.

There is no logic I can use to convince him otherwise and I have no intention of wasting my time with a double blind trial of my own. As mentioned above there are inherent flaws in a double blind trial of determining what I would call "auditory significance" to audio cables, which is similar yet different from statistical significance.

I am trained as a physician to dismiss poorly designed trials, non blinded trials, clinically and statistically insignificant trials and any other variations in data which fail to meet "rigorous standards". I am confronted with my own belief that cables make a difference but a lack of statistical evidence to verify the same. I very much appreciate the recent tests Mr. Gabriel has done to demonstrate the difference of their ZTron technology compared to non-ZTron cables yet I am confronted with a lack of evidence supporting that this technology is audibly significant, that is except for my personal experience which is worthless to anyone but me.

Unfortunately, my friend has taken the null hypothesis (which I must confess is valid until proven otherwise) that cables make no difference. I do wonder if it is possible to design a ZTron cable with the ability to disengage the circuit to run double blind tests.
My friends dogma is no better than mine. I must honestly contend that I do not "know" without any doubt whether cables make an auditory difference. I would contend "how could they not"?

Why can no one disprove the null hypothesis? Is it really that difficult? There must be a simple straight forward test to allay all doubt, yet it seems to elude our abilities. I would suggest that cable companies create an independent body to solve some of these concerns, communicate this information to the public and create a data base or body of scientific research, studies, facts and principles which could be easily cited in their design philosophy........ and while you are at it how about some world peace!

Mike S.