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[junker]

Hey guys...here is an excellent primer on Moving Coil Cartridge Step-up Transformers:

Moving Coil Step Up Guide

[maril555]

Originally Posted by querstrommotor

Hi guys, hi meril 555

again, it is not correct to calculate a SUT´s ratio with just not knowing how much of the complete gain structure of a given preamp is done with the SUT, and which of that gain is made by the active stages.
And the calculation method you described it is exactly that, what brings you to a complete wrong suggestion - and it did not get more correct, if we repeat it one more time - sorry ;-)))
You need to have the specs of the SUT!!!!!

You have to read my post again - as I mentioned the EMT JSD - I did that with a compatible SUT in mind.
The Output of a MC cart is one story, the turn ratio of a SUT designed for the EMT another - please read my first post again - there you will find, that EMT Carts need a 1:7 ratio - which will be less gain put into the actives stage of the RIAA than a Koetsu used with the internal MC section of the fantastic VR pre...

That example shows you that a cart, which has double the output of a Koetsu, can give less total output if you use a EMT compatible SUT with a turn ratio of 1:7, than a Koetsu with 0.5mV driven with a complete incompatible SUT - and till now unknown turn ratio (internal SUT of Shindo VR) - which was made for a Shindo SPU or real classic SPU´s with 2 or 3 Ohm internal impedance.


Now I come to the most strange - sorry for that - part of your last mail.
You really tell us, that a Koetsu Urushi and a Lyra Kleos have nearly the same resolution - that is something I can not understand.....
Which brings me to some more things....
The Graham is perfect for the Lyra Kleos - and it is everything else than perfect for the Koetsu!
A Koetsu needs a much more heavier arm than a Lyra.
The EMT has a compliance of 15 cu, a Lyra has 12 - that means the EMT has a higher compliance as a Lyra - which will work superb in your Graham - but a Koetsu does not!

To handle a Koetsu is nearly as special as handling a SPU.
If you ask me, a Koetsu needs a Fidelity Research FR64 or FR66 arm and - thank you Des W - a Cotter SUT - but keep in mind - there are different types of cotter SUT´s not all are made to work with a Koetsu.
Last but not least a Koetsu needs a player system with a lot of torque - like a Garrard 301 - or a lot of mass like a Micro Seiki 5000 or 1500.
The thing is - the Koetsu is a very classic and old design - they changed in the past some things, to be more compatible to what is available today - but none of the Koetsu dealers tells you the truth - how a Koetsu should be used, because the gear you need to let a Koetsu shine is not very common!
I see Koetsu carts in SME V or Linn arms - that will never work as it could be....

Coming back to Lyra versus Koetsu - both compared working under optimal conditions, you would never say, that they have identical resolution - and also not the same gestalt - I speak only of the wood Koetsu - not the stone ones!!!!
The Lyra has not a bump in the presence - the Koetsu has a dip there.
The Lyra is very neutral - the only thing it will show is a HF rise from 17Khz up.
The dynamic abilities of a Lyra are completely different to a Koetsu - and I do not say - one is better than the other - what I say is - that they both are on completely different sides of the spectrum.

It is like it is - we focus too much on single components - without thinking any further...
Some want a Koetsu - but do not think any further - that it will need a different arm, and a different sut - or it will not show it´s best performance on a linn.
Others wanted to have a Lyra - a cart which sends great energy into the arm - but they have a SME V oder IV in their systems - and the SME is very, very stiff (Armtube) it does not absorb the energy put into the arm, it reflects the energy - which means a Lyra sounds hard, aggressive and tot like it could sound in a Graham or Spiral Groove or Schröder arm.

To have that in mind, you can now understand a lot of sound descriptions at the web.
Lyra= cold, harsh, analytic, fast, dynamic....
Koetsu: slow, wooly bass, dark, lot of flow - great for vocals....

That is the typical description, you will find, letting you know - both carts, as described like above are used with wrong gear...!

Ad it is a little bit the same story with your complete system - Avantgarde - Lamm - Shindo - Koetsu .....

Why do you not try a Lamm RIAA stage together with a Lamm line stage - it would be something completely different, than the Shindo VR - but it is made to fit with Lamm amps???
It you want to go the Shindo way - than it is much more complicated - because a Shindo preamp is made for Shindo amps - they are made for high impedance speakers with great sensivity.
And the RIAA section of the VR is made with a classic original SPU in mind....
That SPU needs a different arm, than a Graham, and such an arm needs also a drive system, which is able to work with such an arm/cart combination.

You have fantastic components - but they give you at the moment not a good system - but you listen through a system not to single components.

So - you can try a Shindo amp as Junker said - but than you have in my opinion the wrong speakers - I agree completely with Jonathan - Avangarde is NOT a good match with Shindo!

@ Des W - thank you for your compliments - as I am an audio engineer (mixing / re recording engineer in film business ) I am used to dig a little bit deeper;-)))))
As I do also a lot of audio restauration work, especially vinyl - I am used to a lot of combination regarding drive systems, arms and carts ( I have here 13 different carts and 5 different arms, as also 5 different drive systems) - so what I try to write is not guessing - it is founded on a technical approach together with years of experience with vintage and modern technology.
My clients come from the record and film industry and also archives - If you do such work, it is most of the time the one and only restauration made to the material - so you have to be sure to get the most out of the material you have to work on. There will be no other instance to do it once again, better or in a different way.
As the material I work on, is a part of our culture (a lot of classic music) you feel a certain pressure on your shoulders to do it in the best possible way (which means to have a vinyl system, which brings most of the given information to a the digital world - I know it is a shame to make all the gerat analog recordings digital - but we live in a digital world - and it is maybe the only chance that the future generations can use it).

I use for the different jobs vintage and modern gear - and - very important - I always try to match the things in a compatible way!!!!!
I use drive systems like Platine, EMT, Commonwealth and Bauer DPS III, arms from EMT, Thomas Schick, Frank Schröder and Spiral Groove, and carts like SPU (vintage and new ones like Shindo SPU) DL 103, Lyra, Zyx, Dynavector, My Sonic Lab, EMT, Ikeda and the Tekeda Miyabi Standard - to name a few.
Preamps are used from Shindo, Air Tight, Klyne, Lamm and Nagra.
SUT from EMT, Neumann, Western Electric, Cotter, Hommage T1, Air Tight and a lot of custom wound SUT.

Over the years I learned that it is always the complete system which brings you the music - not one single component - a perfectly matched system of a lower price range can easily outperform a much more expensive system, which is not perfectly matched!!!!
The industry today leaves the customer in most of the cases alone - we have today nearly no standards in HiFi anymore - Preamps have different in and output impedance figures, which are only compatible to gear from the same company, carts and technical data is often hidden for the customer or is just half of the truth and so on....
Gear like Shindo is made with the idea in mind, people had in the past.
So you have preamps with classic impedance figures like the 600 Ohm standard from the past, amps which can handle that perfectly and also RIAA sections made for the classic carts of the time.
It is a completely different world of hifi, as we will find it most often today.
And that makes it not so easy to put single components of that special and wonderful world into the modern world.
If you leave the Shindo in it´s own world, than you will get more, much more out of the gear. That is a decision you have to make.
If you made it, than it means a lot of consequences - not much gear is out now, which is compatible with the world we had in the 50ties and 60ties - Shindo and also some other companies today bring you that sound again in todays world.
And before you think now - all the Shindo maniacs are all vintage freaks - that is just half of the truth.....
Listen to some vinyl from Mercury, DECCA and RCA Living Stereo - that was recorded in that particular time - and it is a sort of sound and aesthetic we lost over the years - so vintage does not always mean old or antique or outdated.
And that is the world of Shindo - it is a type of HiFi which takes the vintage approach to a new level - as it is written here and elsewhere maybe closer to the music, than a lot of modern systems can do - it is maybe also a matter of taste - because those systems put emotional impact over the last bit of resolution - because resolution deals more with our intellect - a wonderful tone, a big and saturated sound is something for our soul and heart.
And of course I simplify here - because it is much more complex than we can write down in a forum.....
Have a nice day

Ekki

Ekki,
Another outstanding post.
I wish I've read it long time ago.
I was kind of aware of bits and pieces of the info, you presented, but to compile it into such a cohesive picture, that's is something else entirely, and thank you again for that.
A few points:
You are obviously right about calculating step-up ratio (blame Junker for that)
I admit to making a mistake with regard to high output of EMT cart, shouldn't have, without taking appropriate SUT into a consideration.
Koetsu- Graham combo: I have to report, that I didn't come up with that decision entirely on my own. After reading multiple (less, than educated opinions), I thought it would be a good match.
After reading your post again, and giving it some serious thought, Since I really want to give Shindo a best shot possible, I devised a plan of action:
1. Get EMT JSD6 cart
Auditorium 23 Hommage SUT (T2 is the appropriate one for EMT?)
keep Graham Phantom Supreme II tone arm
That way, I should have tone arm, cartridge, SUT and Shindo VR preamp chain "in order".
Avantgarde- Lamm combo works very well,
so, the only questionable link will be Shindo- Lamm.

As an alternative, I have an easy access to Kuzma 4 Point arm (14 g. effective mass), and
12" Reed 3 P with Ebony arm tube- (19 g. effective mass).
Do you think any of these 2 would be a better match to EMT JSD6, than Graham?(they don't publish effective mass numbers)
And I really appreciate your time helping out.
I think, I'm not the only one here, benefiting from your outstanding mastery of the subject.

[maril555]

One more thing- about Lamm Line and phono stages.
I thought about it, but opted for one box solution in the end.
I could get their top line and phono at very attractive price, but it is still too much $$$, and 7 separate chassis to boot.

[junker]

This is not true. The reflected impedance is going to be input impedance * 1/(step-up ratio)^2, which is then adjusted using a resistor on the secondary side of the transformer. Assuming 1:16 step-up ratio and a 100kOhm input impedance the natural impedance seen by the cartridge would be approximately 400ohm which is then reduced to somewhere under 100 ohms with the resistor. Shindo uses Lundahl amorphous core step-up transfos and even though they say they are all custom-wound I would bet money the ratio is 1:16 like in an LL1678 which would use 27,4 kOhm secondary parallel resistor to target 60 ohms at the cartridge, for example. The ratio could also be something like 1:20 as well but we are making assumptions based on a few basic specs.

Originally Posted by querstrommotor

maril 555
With a 1:15 it is impossible to get a proper match with a classic (means really low impedance SPU - like the Shindo SPU) SPU - such a cart should see something around 60 Ohm from the SUT, which is not possible with a 1:15 SUT.i

[DesW]

Originally Posted by maril555

Ekki,
Another outstanding post.

I admit to making a mistake with regard to high output of EMT cart, shouldn't have, without taking appropriate SUT into a consideration.
Koetsu- Graham combo: I have to report, that I didn't come up with that decision entirely on my own. After reading multiple (less, than educated opinions), I thought it would be a good match.
After reading your post again, and giving it some serious thought, Since I really want to give Shindo a best shot possible, I devised a plan of action:
1. Get EMT JSD6 cart
Auditorium 23 Hommage SUT (T2 is the appropriate one for EMT?)
keep Graham Phantom Supreme II tone arm
That way, I should have tone arm, cartridge, SUT and Shindo VR preamp chain "in order".
Avantgarde- Lamm combo works very well,
so, the only questionable link will be Shindo- Lamm.

As an alternative, I have an easy access to Kuzma 4 Point arm (14 g. effective mass), and
12" Reed 3 P with Ebony arm tube- (19 g. effective mass).
Do you think any of these 2 would be a better match to EMT JSD6, than Graham?(they don't publish effective mass numbers)
And I really appreciate your time helping out.
I think, I'm not the only one here, benefiting from your outstanding mastery of the subject.

Hi , OK I can read the dilemma you face my thoughts from what you have and are considering would be

Yes EMT + Hommage Excellent combo--

I use the TSD15s in the 70's -in Hamburg-I stripped them down sans casing -ha!--(only trouble the coils picked up

whiskers from the iron filings in the air!) Great Cart --tons of dynamics and attack --yes the Hommage SUT is the one

to get for that combo--I had a basic A23 and found it a tad soft but so smooth and pleasant.

Forget the Graham Arm with the Koetsu--if you go down that path--I agree with Ekki

I have friends with the Reed-- good arm but no firsthand experience myself.

I own both the Kuzma 4 Point Arm and the Shindo SPU so have experience with both

I'd definitely go for the Kuzma--terrific arm and sonics

Good listening,

DesW

[maril555]

Originally Posted by DesW

Hi , OK I can read the dilemma you face my thoughts from what you have and are considering would be

Yes EMT + Hommage Excellent combo--

I use the TSD15s in the 70's -in Hamburg-I stripped them down sans casing -ha!--(only trouble the coils picked up

whiskers from the iron filings in the air!) Great Cart --tons of dynamics and attack --yes the Hommage SUT is the one

to get for that combo--I had a basic A23 and found it a tad soft but so smooth and pleasant.

Forget the Graham Arm with the Koetsu--if you go down that path--I agree with Ekki

I have friends with the Reed-- good arm but no firsthand experience myself.

I own both the Kuzma 4 Point Arm and the Shindo SPU so have experience with both

I'd definitely go for the Kuzma--terrific arm and sonics

Good listening,

DesW

So, it seems you agree on EMT JSD 6+ Kuzma 4 Point+ Auditorium 23 Hommage T2?
Now, we seems to be getting somewhere

[DesW]

Originally Posted by maril555

So, it seems you agree on EMT JSD 6+ Kuzma 4 Point+ Auditorium 23 Hommage T2?
Now, we seems to be getting somewhere

Well from what I've used and heard myself (BIG EMT fanboi here!)-

-yes I would go for that

Don't forget the Long version EMT Banana Arm --also excellent

My personal pref is for the 4point --VTA on the fly and the superb Vernier

Azimuth adjustment--a well designed and priced Arm.

Apologies --back original topic

DesW

[maril555]

Originally Posted by DesW

Well from what I've used and heard myself (BIG EMT fanboi here!)-

-yes I would go for that

Don't forget the Long version EMT Banana Arm --also excellent

My personal pref is for the 4point --VTA on the fly and the superb Vernier

Azimuth adjustment--a well designed and priced Arm.

Apologies --back original topic

DesW

I looked up EMT JSD 6 specs again, and it seems, they recommend 15-35 g. effective mass arms.
Kuzma 4 Point is 14 g.
Graham is about the same and 12" Reed 3 P with Ebony wand is 19 g.?
I know, those are just numbers, that don't necessarily translate in better sonic results, but still- I don't want to make another expensive mistake

[maril555]

Ekki,
Could you chime in here, please?
I decided to go with EMT JSD 6/ Auditorium 23 Hommage T2,
so the decision I have to make now is about the arm:
My present 10" Graham Phantom Supreme II (unknown effective mass, likely in the 12-14 g. range)
Kuzma 4 Point- 14 g. effective mass
12" Reed 3P, Ebony wand- 19 g. effective mass
Thanks

[querstrommotor]

Hi guys,

1. EMT JSD
The EMT JSD5 and 6 have a compliance of 15 - that is compatible with Graham and also Kutzma - I would think the Graham is the better arm of the two - but that is just me....
VTA and Azimuth are also easy to adjust.
The Graham has in my opinion the superior construction - but - as I said - it is just me.
The 15-35g on the EMT web site is a matter of having an arm and a headshellsystem - so stay cool - about 35g;-)))) - that is way toooo much for 15cu compliance....

You can measure the eff mass with a test record - with attached EMT and Graham it should be around 10hz - you can also use the vinyl engine calculator - that is pretty much a precise tool.
If you use 35g eff mass your f/res drops significantly to a figure, were you get trouble with resonances while walking or from the woofers of your system.

And yes - the Reed ist also a fine flexible arm...I would place this near the Graham....
You already have a wonderful arm for carts which are not too stiff - a Koetsu needs a heavy arm.


2. Hommage T2:
Get the torn ratio from your dealer - and than you can calculate - beside that, it is one of the best SUTs for an EMT right now (beneath custom SUTs).

3. The whole system:
Do not ask me if a Lamm amp can handle the high gain Shindo VR - so that you can get normal gain situation together with your Avantgarde - I doubt it.....
I have to look the specs and especially the input sensivity - how is VR with a line signal matching with your Lamm??? - Let´s say a CD player with 2V output gain??? - If that works than you can move on - of not, you have a compatibility problem between VR and Lamm.
You should also have a look to input and output impedances of am and pre.
Do not blame us ;-))) - if there is again too much gain....read trough all posts again - it is important, that you understand the whole system with all gain stages....


4. All in all....
It is in most of the cases the same story - people, who are interested in Shindo do not come out of a HiFi vacuum - they already have something at home, which was very expensive.
Than they read or hear a Shindo system - which is something else, than the conventional HiFi system.
Than the story begins - parts of Shindo are implemented in the system - people already have.
And that is the beginning of a long journey.
Some go the way to the end - and with that I do not mean - buy the most expensive Shindo components - a small system, with Aurige and Montille, some Altec Speakers a Ligno Lab Garrard a EMT Arm or a Ortofon 309i or SME 3012 (if in good shape with bronce knife upgrade), a SPU or EMT or DL 103 with Ligno Shell and that put on a good rack system (Box or Ligno Lab or self made) - and it will work as it is ment to be - means no stress no hassle no nothing - just fun to listen.
The other way is to stop half the way - and than it starts - no compatible speakers - no compatible front end, a mixture of pre and power amp - all that is everything else than what was constructed in those green boxes.
And - much more difficult today - as every company makes things without any standard in mind.
What I want to say - if you would own a Marantz 8B, or 9 mono - a MAC 225 or 240, a Quad or a Leak amp - they would work with the Shindo pres (with most of them) - because in those days they built the things with the 600 Ohm standard in mind....
Also gain was no problem - it is adjustable on a Mac and will work also with the Marantz (which has no input sensivity pots).
But today everything is different....!!!!!!
Please keep that in mind - I think you do not have only a problem with the right cart/SUT combo - there is also Gain problems with VR and Lamm...

You have to sit back and think about what you want do listen today and maybe in 3 years.
And if you like the Shindo sound - you have to do some radical decisions.
If you are not sure - try the Lamm complete amp chain - it is also a very good sounding solution - which works with your speakers.
Some people sell the Shindo stuff because they could not find a good solution with a mixture of Shindo and other stuff (which is also true wit mixed up equipment of other brands - think why you find so much stuff on audiogon and elsewhere...)


5. @Junker

First we have to know if Shindo uses a 47Kohm RIAA input for his SUT solution.
Than we have, as you describe a secondary load on the SUT - are you sure that is really the case?????
My guess is a 1:26 SUT inside - and the Lundahls could be wired up in a different way....so there are more possibilities.
The SPU should see something around 60 Ohms from the SUT - I mean a real SPU - not the stuff made today with 6 Ohms - for that you need 100 Ohm!

And there is no reason to blame someone - it is not easy to read the figures and do draw a signal flow chart just watching the preamp - Junker is right when it comes to what Shindo presents officially - but that is in my opinion just the beginning - with no exact data on the given SUT without secondary loading and knowledge about the rest of the sheme (RIAA input impedance and so on) it is more or less guessing.
Also intresting is the output of the RIAA to the Lin stage - is there any feedback?? - how is the RIAA cupeled to the Lin stage (kathode follower, Transformer, SRPP, direct?????).
We do not know!

Greetings Ekki


PS: Here is another EMT fanboy sitting in Berlin;-)))) - Love the bold and saturated sound - maybe the greatest bass.....

I use my EMT JSD5 with a Shröder Reference SQ with Bamboo armtube and 14g eff mass.
Th Schröder is mounted on a Baur DPS III IT (in USA it is distributed via Ayre) - or I use it on the original EMT Banana Arm on a Platine - which is modified with a tape drive and a different motor.
I use a EMT RIAA stage coming from an EMT 927 drive system with the original Neumann SUTs in place - sounds amazing!