Has anyone made the leap from 802D3 to 800D3?

[ariess]

Originally Posted by joey_v

Thank you for pointing that out, I read it through google translate and he heard exactly what I heard.



The 800D3 sounds different than the 802D3, the bass is obviously different but the lower midrange as well.



I find it more "pure" whereas the 802D3 I felt was slightly veiled in DIRECT comparison. But the difference was not as huge as I suspected as I missed the first 2 blinds... but once I realized what I was looking for, the next 3 blinds were easy (and I didn't listen for bass difference, just vocal reproduction difference).



Perhaps if I played the entire song I would've been able to guess 5/5.



But regardless, paper over mouth = 802D3, remove that paper = 800D3.



The only caveat is exactly what the reviewer mentioned:



You release that slight bit of warmth on the 802D3, let it go... and you get better neutrality. Along that comes a cost... do you want that?



As for me, as for today... I am undecided.



Interestingly enough, if it was just the bass that was different I would've pulled the trigger on the 800D3 already.



Isn't that funny?

If it was just the bass you would have pulled the trigger, so it's the difference in the midrange that's makes you unsure which you prefer?

As for me, it was the audition in the store (big room) that made me think I would go to the 800 and the audition in my house which made me stay with the 802. The 800 bass is only better if your room can handle it. If it can't, it's worse. Please try them in your room!

The difference in the midrange was very subtle. I agree that the 800 was a tad more neutral and transparent and less warm. The amount of difference there was at the level I can find by changing a cable. As you found in the blinds, you probably wouldn't notice it unless you were really studying it.

[GregGale]

Originally Posted by joey_v

Thank you for pointing that out, I read it through google translate and he heard exactly what I heard.

The 800D3 sounds different than the 802D3, the bass is obviously different but the lower midrange as well.

I find it more "pure" whereas the 802D3 I felt was slightly veiled in DIRECT comparison. But the difference was not as huge as I suspected as I missed the first 2 blinds... but once I realized what I was looking for, the next 3 blinds were easy (and I didn't listen for bass difference, just vocal reproduction difference).

Perhaps if I played the entire song I would've been able to guess 5/5.

But regardless, paper over mouth = 802D3, remove that paper = 800D3.

The only caveat is exactly what the reviewer mentioned:

You release that slight bit of warmth on the 802D3, let it go... and you get better neutrality. Along that comes a cost... do you want that?

As for me, as for today... I am undecided.

Interestingly enough, if it was just the bass that was different I would've pulled the trigger on the 800D3 already.

Isn't that funny?

From the HiFi news review I read, they did have to position the 800 differently than the 802 D3 to get better quality sound, but made a statement that the 802 D3 prior to that repositioning was more "euphonic". If you look at the frequency response curves the 802D3 shows a smoother mid-bass response as there was a pronounced "hump" that was not present with the 802D3, but as we know you don't make a decision based on frequency and data charts.

Part of reason the midrange maybe perceived as more "accurate" could have something to do with the lower distortion of the bass drivers and improvements to the cross-over which I believe has some different capacitor changes in relation to the 802D3.

So much of this with any speaker comes down to your room and the positioning of the speaker in the room. If you had a room large enough to allow the 800D3 to breath and be positioned properly, I am sure they would be the "superior" loudspeaker which they should be for the price.

If I was going to go this direction, I would want a home audition to make sure there was enough improvement to justify the cost increase. As Ariess found when putting the 800D3 in the same location as his 802D3, the bass was too overpowering and he seemed to be much happier with his 802D3 which was better integrating into his room.

[Art Vandelay]

Originally Posted by joey_v

You release that slight bit of warmth on the 802D3, let it go... and you get better neutrality. Along that comes a cost... do you want that?

I know where you're coming from but having also heard both side by side I would still take the 800D3 over the 802D3 if the room can accommodate them.

What you're hearing between the two is also one of the several areas of improvement that exists between all D2 and D3 models.

Getting precisely the sound you want to cover the full spectrum of your favorite music will come down to some combination of electronics, cables and speaker placement etc, but it's on those select best recordings that you'll really appreciate the 800's.

[joey_v]

I now know that the cross overs are different and there is less bass to low midrange distortion... Question is, do I want to rock the boat?

[GregGale]

Originally Posted by joey_v

I now know that the cross overs are different and there is less bass to low midrange distortion... Question is, do I want to rock the boat?

Can you audition them at home? Then you will know for sure like Ariess did.

[joey_v]

Originally Posted by GregGale

Can you audition them at home? Then you will know for sure like Ariess did.

No, I cannot

[ariess]

Originally Posted by GregGale

Can you audition them at home? Then you will know for sure like Ariess did.

I think this is a simple way to think of whether you should make the switch or not.

The change in the midrange we can agree is very small (as it must be, its the same drivers, just a small reduction in distortion in the woofers which lowers the distortion that crosses into the midrange), at the level you could produce with cable change. For the ~$10k difference you will pay, you'd be better served with a cable upgrade, a component upgrade, vibration mitigation or power conditioner improvement. So I'd argue, if the only change between 802D3 and 800D3 was the midrange, it wouldn't make sense to upgrade from an 802D3.

So its all about the bass

The bass change is what's meaningfully different and where B&W put the extra money. Its not a change you could mimic with cables, components, or anything else. And I could believe for many audiophiles (music type dependent) it could be a game changer--after all, many people add a subwoofer to full range speakers to get that last bottom octave.

But there is a catch to the bass change--depending on your room you may realize the benefit of deeper and more powerful bass or you may actually suffer a *downgrade* in bass quality if it overpowers your room (as I found). I'd argue, its unlikely to be a wash, its most likely to be really better or really worse. If your room is big and you have freedom of placement, I am confident its going to be better. If you have a small room and/or inflexible placement options, its going to be worse. But, if you are somewhere in the middle, I think an audition in your room is critical.

[joey_v]

Ariess,

I'm glad you've engaged me in this conversation.

I believe the midrange diff is enough to notice, that piece of paper being removed is enough of a difference for me to think twice. The bass is different, unable to compensate with cables.

I am not sure if cables are something I can further upgrade as I'm getting close to maybe settling on a near full Audioquest WEL loom.

I could do dual subs and integrate them.

Or I could just sit tight and do nothing.

Not sure if a preamp upgrade would help, I have the Cary 05.

I'm also not sure if I can move up the amplification chain as I have the Boulder 2060.

I'm going to go back and listen but this time I am bringing my Emm labs and Cary pre

Originally Posted by ariess

I think this is a simple way to think of whether you should make the switch or not.

The change in the midrange we can agree is very small (as it must be, its the same drivers, just a small reduction in distortion in the woofers which lowers the distortion that crosses into the midrange), at the level you could produce with cable change. For the ~$10k difference you will pay, you'd be better served with a cable upgrade, a component upgrade, vibration mitigation or power conditioner improvement. So I'd argue, if the only change between 802D3 and 800D3 was the midrange, it wouldn't make sense to upgrade from an 802D3.

So its all about the bass

The bass change is what's meaningfully different and where B&W put the extra money. Its not a change you could mimic with cables, components, or anything else. And I could believe for many audiophiles (music type dependent) it could be a game changer--after all, many people add a subwoofer to full range speakers to get that last bottom octave.

But there is a catch to the bass change--depending on your room you may realize the benefit of deeper and more powerful bass or you may actually suffer a *downgrade* in bass quality if it overpowers your room (as I found). I'd argue, its unlikely to be a wash, its most likely to be really better or really worse. If your room is big and you have freedom of placement, I am confident its going to be better. If you have a small room and/or inflexible placement options, its going to be worse. But, if you are somewhere in the middle, I think an audition in your room is critical.

[ariess]

Originally Posted by joey_v

Ariess,

I'm glad you've engaged me in this conversation.

I believe the midrange diff is enough to notice, that piece of paper being removed is enough of a difference for me to think twice. The bass is different, unable to compensate with cables.

I am not sure if cables are something I can further upgrade as I'm getting close to a full Audioquest WEL loom.

I could do dual subs and integrate them.

Or I could just sit tight and do nothing.

Not sure if a preamp upgrade would help, I have the Cary 05.

I'm also not sure if I can move up the amplification chain as I have the Boulder 2060.

I'm going to go back and listen but this time I am bringing my Emm labs and Cary pre

Well I don't want to tell you how to spend your money, but...

1) I'd offer your 800D3 dealer a $1000 non-refundable deposit for an 800D3 in home audition. If you like them after audition, the $1000 goes towards negotiated purchase price. If you don't, they get the $1000 for the effort (and damage risk) of the audition.

2) I suspect you could do better than the Cary 05 with the money saved by not going for the 800D3. It may punch above its cost but it's price point is well below the rest of your rig. If you like tube preamps (I do) why not try an Audio Research Ref 6 or (used) 10 or a VTL Reference ? Never met someone who tried one and wasn't blown away. You might just find a bigger gain there.


Just two cents from somewhere who nearly did the switch until the in home audition.

[joey_v]

Good points. Question - how's the ref10 on the BW?

Originally Posted by ariess

Well I don't want to tell you how to spend your money, but...

1) I'd offer your 800D3 dealer a $1000 non-refundable deposit for an 800D3 in home audition. If you like them after audition, the $1000 goes towards negotiated purchase price. If you don't, they get the $1000 for the effort (and damage risk) of the audition.

2) I suspect you could do better than the Cary 05 with the money saved by not going for the 800D3. It may punch above its cost but it's price point is well below the rest of your rig. If you like tube preamps (I do) why not try an Audio Research Ref 6 or (used) 10 or a VTL Reference ? Never met someone who tried one and wasn't blown away. You might just find a bigger gain there.


Just two cents from somewhere who nearly did the switch until the in home audition.