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  #61  
Old 02-07-2018, 02:32 PM
Jerome W's Avatar
Jerome W Jerome W is offline
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Hello folks,
I received my Bob's Devices SKY 30 SUT today and I am listening to it right now.
2 records played and I can say that this SUT is not for the faint hearted !
It throws a huge image, with lots of weight and details. The bandwidth increased by a huge amount on both sides of the spectrum.
The sound is radically different than the MC stage of my Cyrus phono stage. It reminds a bit of the Hommage SUT.
The problem is that before the insertion of the SUT, with the Vermillion into the Cyrus MC stage, the sound was clearly tilted to the mids with a slight cut in high treble and bass. So the mids were beautifully delineated with the voices completely apart from the instruments.
With the Bob's SKY 30, I get so much more details and extension of the spectrum that my ears and my mind do not find the magic of the mids that was so obvious in the MC stage of the Cyrus.
It may be just a question of time to get used to this new sound which is much more focused and neutral than what I got before the adding of the SUT. Or my ears may finally prefer euphony and less details ? Time will tell.
Something is sure : Bob's devices SUT are stunning and truly impressive. At least for the ones looking to the " very best" sound possible with an MC cart.
Bob is a great guy to deal with. Highly available and responsive to your particular needs.
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  #62  
Old 02-07-2018, 03:46 PM
mulveling mulveling is offline
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Definitely give it more time to run in (at least 20-30 hours - dynamics and midrange will improve!); also, more importantly, your brain needs time to adapt to the new sound. I've been swapping between two Skys (40x and 20x) and a Lundahl 1931 (16x) with my new VAC phono stage. The different between these two types of SUTs alone (even after accounting for loading/gain differences) is about as profound as the difference between my Koetsu Coralstone and Shelter Harmony! Therefore, "mental break-in" is extremely important.

I find the Skys to pack a hell of a wallop down low; they are very much tilted towards warmth, bass impact, and a lush/thick midrange -- paired with Koetsu stones, they render about the most beautiful midrange I've ever heard. Treble extension and detail retrieval is very good, but far from "in your face" about it.

The 1931 sounds stunningly "crystalline". It's extraordinarily resolving and transparent, with absolutely amazing spatial information. It is much more "in your face" about presentation of detail. Unfortunately, it definitely lacks low end impact compared to the Skys, and when paired with Koetsu it can also accentuate any hardness/shoutiness in the upper mids / lower treble region of a recording.

The Sky is parallel to the Koetsu's nature. The 1931 to the Shelter. I don't feel it's wise to fight the "nature" of a cartridge in an attempt to change its character!

Last edited by mulveling; 02-07-2018 at 03:53 PM.
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  #63  
Old 02-07-2018, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mulveling View Post
Definitely give it more time to run in (at least 20-30 hours - dynamics and midrange will improve!); also, more importantly, your brain needs time to adapt to the new sound. I've been swapping between two Skys (40x and 20x) and a Lundahl 1931 (16x) with my new VAC phono stage. The different between these two types of SUTs alone (even after accounting for loading/gain differences) is about as profound as the difference between my Koetsu Coralstone and Shelter Harmony! Therefore, "mental break-in" is extremely important.

I find the Skys to pack a hell of a wallop down low; they are very much tilted towards warmth, bass impact, and a lush/thick midrange -- paired with Koetsu stones, they render about the most beautiful midrange I've ever heard. Treble extension and detail retrieval is very good, but far from "in your face" about it.

The 1931 sounds stunningly "crystalline". It's extraordinarily resolving and transparent, with absolutely amazing spatial information. Unfortunately, it definitely lacks low end impact compared to the Skys, and when paired with Koetsu it can also accentuate any hardness/shoutiness in the upper mids / lower treble region of a recording.

The Sky is parallel to the Koetsu's nature. The 1931 to the Shelter. I don't feel it's wise to fight the "nature" of a cartridge in an attempt to change its character!


Thanks a lot for these informations !!
I was actually wondering wether SUTs require break in or not. At least I do need psychological break in !
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  #64  
Old 04-23-2018, 01:21 PM
querstrommotor querstrommotor is offline
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Dear Jerome,

some experiences with Koetsu....maybe helpful....

If we look at the Koetsu Range than:

1. We have the Koetsu Black and the Rosewood Standard.
Both share exactly the same Generator - 6n copper wire, Smarium Cobalt magnets, Ogura Boron needle with the spezial sugano design at the tip.
Both have 5 Ohm internal resistance and share the same output of around 0,4mV - not 0,6mV as we can read sometimes....
The difference is the body material - the Black ist the only Koetsu cartridge with an aluminium body the weight is a bit higher than with all wood body carts and helps the medium mass tonearms often paired with this cart, we will see later, why this could be important.
Both carts share a slightly different body-form - they miss the scoop on the bottom plate behind the needle and have a slight angled underside - so that you can easily see the needle during the adjustment process.

With the Roseewood Signature things geht a little more different...
The Rosewood Sig ist the first Koetsu, that shares the traditional body with the bigger wood cartridges - means - no angle anymore at the front underside and the traditional bottom Plate with the scoop.
Also the tolerances with this cart are higher, than with the Black and Rosewood Standard, the Rosewood Body uses older material and the precision and QC ist higher with this model.
The generator with this 3 models is the same - just higher tolerances and purer material on the Rosewood Signature.
And all three share the monting system with screws an nuts....which is not the easiest way to mount a cart!

That brings us to the Urushi range....
With the Urushi we get different coil wire....it is still 6n copper - but here Koetsu uses the silver cladding process - a very thin silver plating which will be put on the copper wire with a special technique.
The body material is again rosewood, but in this case there is the artful Urushi laquer used to harden the wood!

Also these models have 0,4mV output and 5 Ohm internal resistance, the same needle and the same Sugano design with the sahpe of the diamond.

The one and only difference is the Vermillion....
Here Koetsu uses different wire and half of the turns on the coil.
That means - you have still the 5 Ohm internal resistance, but the Output drops to 0,2mV!
This is the one and only Urushi, wich uses this different generator!
From the Urushi Range on, wie have threaded holes to mount the cart!

Next in the lineup ist the Rosewood Platinum Signature...an as the name implies - we now have not anymore a smarium cobalt magnet system - now Koetsu is using the very rare platinum magnets for building the generator!
Coils are the same, as with the Urushi models (not the Vernillion).
But as a result of the platinum magnets, wie have a slightly drop in output - from 0,4mV to 0,3mV.
The wood, which is used with the Rosewood Platinum Signature is much older as with the smaller Rosewood models. It is also much darker.

This ist the "smallest" Platinum model available in the Koetsu range.

Which brings us to the Stone bodies....they all use today the platinum magnets - so they have 0,3mV output.
With the stone bodies wie have now a very, very hard and heavy material - so they all sound different to all wood body carts.


General view:

Koetsu carts are low compliance carts and need a heavy arm - all starts at 14g - but more is better....19 - 22g is the best range.
With the black it is a little bit different - because this cart is a little more heavy because of its aluminium body - and the stone cartridges are also heavier as the wood bodies....but around 19g is a fine starting point.

When we think of the equipment Sugano San used to voice his carts, than the tings get clearer and we get some good advice for our installation.

Sugano used a Garrard 401 and a Fidelity Research FR 64S.
The FR64S is a very, very heavy tonearm with an amazing performance - the energy transfer with this arm is amazing.
The Garrard 401 is an idler wheel table with a lot of torque.
The combination of an idler wheel and FR64S tonearm is a completely different experience than lets say a Rega Arm with a Oracle Delphi - with the Delphi we get, what we can read nearly in every Koetsu thread on the internet - flabby bass, rolled off treble, great midtone, but coloured and slow.
The Oracle with the Rega is just an example - most of the tables and arms used with a Koetsu produce such a sound - some more, some less....

If the bass is flabby and reaches not deep, also slow and mediocre - that the arm is too light, and can´t handle the energy the cart send to the armtube.
The sae is also the case with the rolled off treble.....

If we use a idler drive or a heavy mass drive, a very good direct drive and something near the performance of an FR 64S - we get a completely different experience....dynamic is good, resolution is also good, bass is tight and deep, and we get this amazing midtone, a great space is also in the mix.
Do not get me wrong - it will never be a Lyra cart - but we have a very nice resolution at the top end, with some silky smooth hights and a lot of space and air - a Koetsu is more analytic and colder on top.
We get not the speedy bass performance of a Lyra, also not the fleshed out low midband - the Koetsu is fuller, and, yes it is a little bit slower - bot it is not rolled off in the bass region, and it is not flabby!

That brings us to some adjustment points....:

VTA:
Should be level - use therefor the top plate of the cart - or the headshell!
VTA is than perfect, if high frequency events (S, T, SCH) with the human voice are a little bit in front of the vocals....if they are in your face - the VTA is too high....
If you cannot reach a good centerfill, VTA is too low.
And do not lough - a Koetsu is very, very sensitive with VTA.....

VTF:
Black and Rosewood Standard need a bit unter 2g
Rosewood Signature needs something around 1.95g maybe a tad less!
Urushi around 1,9g
The Stone Body carts can handle less than 1,9g!
And forget the tracing test record....a Koetsu will fall short with a tracking test on a test record - BUT it will handle the strongest soprano voice near the last groove!
Means in the real world it is a fantastic tracker!

Electrical Things:
If you use the cart with an active RIAA stage - than a good starting point will be 100 Ohm.
Yes - you get more sparcle with 300 Ohm - but listen to the S and, SCH and T in the vocal performance on your favourite record - is it natural - or is it synthetic....
My experience is - 100 Ohm is almost perfect.

If a Koetsu sounds nice with an active stage - that it can bring all the bells and whistles on the table, if you use a SUT!

One of the most legendary SUT´s out there, which can be used with a Koetsu - and which also Sugano used is the Cotter MK II L or P!

With the Urushi Vermillion and the Stone Bodies, as also the Rosewood Sig Platinum the Cotter MK II L is the one to use....with the 0,4mV Koetsu the Model P is amazing!

I read here in the context of the Koetsu used with a SUT some advices using a 40:1 SUT - that is much tooo much......

To get the idea:

40:1 32db Gain 29 Ohm

30:1 29db Gain 53 Ohm

20:1 27db Gain 117 Ohm

With a 0,4mV Koetsu a 20:1 SUT will be fantastic, and with the Vermillion and the Platinum Koetsu it could be something between 20:1 and 30:1 - 30:1 will work - depends on the MM stage an the gain you will have!

With 30db of MM gain, I would choose 30:1 - with 40db or more MM gain 20:1 is enough!


And yes - a Sut needs some hours to sound like it should do....but be careful with running a CD Signal through it...because - remember - the Sut is made to get on its primary a Signal of 0,XmV!!!!! - A CD Player has 2V and more - that is not a good thing for running in a SUT.
Use your laptop with volume set on minimum and use a white noise signal from the web - listen if you can deztect distortion - if the SUT distorts, it is still tooo much gain on the input side!s

Hope that helps....

Greetings

Ekki from Berlin....


PS: I use a Koetsu Urushi Wajima, A Koetsu vermillion Mono and a Koetsu Rosewood Signature with Frank Schröder Reference and CB Tonearms (19 - 22g eff mass) and a Cotter MK II P as also a Cotter MK II L.
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  #65  
Old 04-23-2018, 09:06 PM
Jerome W's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by querstrommotor View Post
Dear Jerome,

some experiences with Koetsu....maybe helpful....

If we look at the Koetsu Range than:

1. We have the Koetsu Black and the Rosewood Standard.
Both share exactly the same Generator - 6n copper wire, Smarium Cobalt magnets, Ogura Boron needle with the spezial sugano design at the tip.
Both have 5 Ohm internal resistance and share the same output of around 0,4mV - not 0,6mV as we can read sometimes....
The difference is the body material - the Black ist the only Koetsu cartridge with an aluminium body the weight is a bit higher than with all wood body carts and helps the medium mass tonearms often paired with this cart, we will see later, why this could be important.
Both carts share a slightly different body-form - they miss the scoop on the bottom plate behind the needle and have a slight angled underside - so that you can easily see the needle during the adjustment process.

With the Roseewood Signature things geht a little more different...
The Rosewood Sig ist the first Koetsu, that shares the traditional body with the bigger wood cartridges - means - no angle anymore at the front underside and the traditional bottom Plate with the scoop.
Also the tolerances with this cart are higher, than with the Black and Rosewood Standard, the Rosewood Body uses older material and the precision and QC ist higher with this model.
The generator with this 3 models is the same - just higher tolerances and purer material on the Rosewood Signature.
And all three share the monting system with screws an nuts....which is not the easiest way to mount a cart!

That brings us to the Urushi range....
With the Urushi we get different coil wire....it is still 6n copper - but here Koetsu uses the silver cladding process - a very thin silver plating which will be put on the copper wire with a special technique.
The body material is again rosewood, but in this case there is the artful Urushi laquer used to harden the wood!

Also these models have 0,4mV output and 5 Ohm internal resistance, the same needle and the same Sugano design with the sahpe of the diamond.

The one and only difference is the Vermillion....
Here Koetsu uses different wire and half of the turns on the coil.
That means - you have still the 5 Ohm internal resistance, but the Output drops to 0,2mV!
This is the one and only Urushi, wich uses this different generator!
From the Urushi Range on, wie have threaded holes to mount the cart!

Next in the lineup ist the Rosewood Platinum Signature...an as the name implies - we now have not anymore a smarium cobalt magnet system - now Koetsu is using the very rare platinum magnets for building the generator!
Coils are the same, as with the Urushi models (not the Vernillion).
But as a result of the platinum magnets, wie have a slightly drop in output - from 0,4mV to 0,3mV.
The wood, which is used with the Rosewood Platinum Signature is much older as with the smaller Rosewood models. It is also much darker.

This ist the "smallest" Platinum model available in the Koetsu range.

Which brings us to the Stone bodies....they all use today the platinum magnets - so they have 0,3mV output.
With the stone bodies wie have now a very, very hard and heavy material - so they all sound different to all wood body carts.


General view:

Koetsu carts are low compliance carts and need a heavy arm - all starts at 14g - but more is better....19 - 22g is the best range.
With the black it is a little bit different - because this cart is a little more heavy because of its aluminium body - and the stone cartridges are also heavier as the wood bodies....but around 19g is a fine starting point.

When we think of the equipment Sugano San used to voice his carts, than the tings get clearer and we get some good advice for our installation.

Sugano used a Garrard 401 and a Fidelity Research FR 64S.
The FR64S is a very, very heavy tonearm with an amazing performance - the energy transfer with this arm is amazing.
The Garrard 401 is an idler wheel table with a lot of torque.
The combination of an idler wheel and FR64S tonearm is a completely different experience than lets say a Rega Arm with a Oracle Delphi - with the Delphi we get, what we can read nearly in every Koetsu thread on the internet - flabby bass, rolled off treble, great midtone, but coloured and slow.
The Oracle with the Rega is just an example - most of the tables and arms used with a Koetsu produce such a sound - some more, some less....

If the bass is flabby and reaches not deep, also slow and mediocre - that the arm is too light, and can´t handle the energy the cart send to the armtube.
The sae is also the case with the rolled off treble.....

If we use a idler drive or a heavy mass drive, a very good direct drive and something near the performance of an FR 64S - we get a completely different experience....dynamic is good, resolution is also good, bass is tight and deep, and we get this amazing midtone, a great space is also in the mix.
Do not get me wrong - it will never be a Lyra cart - but we have a very nice resolution at the top end, with some silky smooth hights and a lot of space and air - a Koetsu is more analytic and colder on top.
We get not the speedy bass performance of a Lyra, also not the fleshed out low midband - the Koetsu is fuller, and, yes it is a little bit slower - bot it is not rolled off in the bass region, and it is not flabby!

That brings us to some adjustment points....:

VTA:
Should be level - use therefor the top plate of the cart - or the headshell!
VTA is than perfect, if high frequency events (S, T, SCH) with the human voice are a little bit in front of the vocals....if they are in your face - the VTA is too high....
If you cannot reach a good centerfill, VTA is too low.
And do not lough - a Koetsu is very, very sensitive with VTA.....

VTF:
Black and Rosewood Standard need a bit unter 2g
Rosewood Signature needs something around 1.95g maybe a tad less!
Urushi around 1,9g
The Stone Body carts can handle less than 1,9g!
And forget the tracing test record....a Koetsu will fall short with a tracking test on a test record - BUT it will handle the strongest soprano voice near the last groove!
Means in the real world it is a fantastic tracker!

Electrical Things:
If you use the cart with an active RIAA stage - than a good starting point will be 100 Ohm.
Yes - you get more sparcle with 300 Ohm - but listen to the S and, SCH and T in the vocal performance on your favourite record - is it natural - or is it synthetic....
My experience is - 100 Ohm is almost perfect.

If a Koetsu sounds nice with an active stage - that it can bring all the bells and whistles on the table, if you use a SUT!

One of the most legendary SUT´s out there, which can be used with a Koetsu - and which also Sugano used is the Cotter MK II L or P!

With the Urushi Vermillion and the Stone Bodies, as also the Rosewood Sig Platinum the Cotter MK II L is the one to use....with the 0,4mV Koetsu the Model P is amazing!

I read here in the context of the Koetsu used with a SUT some advices using a 40:1 SUT - that is much tooo much......

To get the idea:

40:1 32db Gain 29 Ohm

30:1 29db Gain 53 Ohm

20:1 27db Gain 117 Ohm

With a 0,4mV Koetsu a 20:1 SUT will be fantastic, and with the Vermillion and the Platinum Koetsu it could be something between 20:1 and 30:1 - 30:1 will work - depends on the MM stage an the gain you will have!

With 30db of MM gain, I would choose 30:1 - with 40db or more MM gain 20:1 is enough!


And yes - a Sut needs some hours to sound like it should do....but be careful with running a CD Signal through it...because - remember - the Sut is made to get on its primary a Signal of 0,XmV!!!!! - A CD Player has 2V and more - that is not a good thing for running in a SUT.
Use your laptop with volume set on minimum and use a white noise signal from the web - listen if you can deztect distortion - if the SUT distorts, it is still tooo much gain on the input side!s

Hope that helps....

Greetings

Ekki from Berlin....


PS: I use a Koetsu Urushi Wajima, A Koetsu vermillion Mono and a Koetsu Rosewood Signature with Frank Schröder Reference and CB Tonearms (19 - 22g eff mass) and a Cotter MK II P as also a Cotter MK II L.


Hello Ekki,

Great great informations. Thanks a lot.
I am extremely happy with my Vermillion and Rosewood Standard.
Maybe could try a Schröder arm on the Verdier : a friend is the Schröder importer for France. He told me that the arm is fabulous with Koetsu. But I am so happy with the SME M2-12R ( some say that it is very similar to FR arms ) that I am not daring to move....
Thanks again !
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  #66  
Old 04-23-2018, 10:32 PM
mulveling mulveling is offline
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That's an amazing write-up, Ekki!! I was one who mentioned using Koetsu stones with 40:1 gain, and now I agree that's a bit too much (but workable). Indeed, around 20:1 is about perfect!

I actually just acquired an FR64S for the sole purpose of running my best Koetsus, and am about to begin the journey of getting it mounted on my Master Innovation. If nothing else, simply a gorgeous arm to look at, once the cruft of 40 years' time is polished away (finely crafted stainless steel is such a beauty). I've had an FR64fx for years on a SOTA that sounds fabulous with any Koetsu and most of the Ortofon Cadenza (excepting the Black model, which must be too high in compliance for a good marriage). But the stainless 64S is reportedly even better for Koetsu than the aluminum 64fx.

After 5 years, I just feel the urge to move on from the Graham Supreme arm for my Clearaudio table - for one, the armwands are much more expensive and annoying to collect than headshells.


Last edited by mulveling; 04-23-2018 at 10:54 PM.
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  #67  
Old 04-24-2018, 05:20 AM
querstrommotor querstrommotor is offline
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Dear Mike an Jerome,

First - SORRY for a lot of typos in my text above - I wrote it during a session in my studio - and had to speed up......hope it is still understandable!!!!!!
Thank you!!!!

So - lets start:

I think it is very interesting to look at a Koetsu from it´s historical background, at the year of it´s first release (end of 70ties last century), we had the SPU, the DECCA and so on - the Koetsu was a completely new chapter in cartridge design.
Today, most of the HiFi industry has forgotten what a Koetsu needs to perform on it´s pinnacle. The reason might be, that today the ultra High End customers look at the price tags - there they will find the Lyra Atlas, Clearaudio Goldfinger, Air Tight Opus 1 oder PC1 Supreme, Zyx Universe, Dynavector XV1t and so on....and of course the Koetsu stone body cartridges.
A Lyra Atlas is an ultra modern construction, a Coral stone Koetsu is something very traditional, which we have to see in a certain context.
The demand of an Atlas couldn´t be more different, than that of the Coral Stone or more so an Urushi....

That brings me back to the FR64S and to your great picture, Mike!!!!
That is maybe the mother of all steel Armtube designs - it is one of a kind!!!! Tonearm design done right!!!!! - The same must be said about the 12" brother, the FR66S!
The FX variant of those arms could not touch the quality of the S class!
Ikeda San made them - because they are more compatible with higher compliance carts - but the FX FR designs are not even close to the FR64 and 66S designs!
Both (64s /66s) were made without any restrictions by Ikeda San, who designed later under his own name Ikeda, the Ikeda tonearms, which are good, but not in the same league, as the FR 64s and 66s! And no SME could ever touch this quality, no vintage 3012/3009 (fist series with steel armtube, the best of them) nor the modern reincarnation of these classics!

The only thing you should change with your original FR64S, ist the headshell - use a vintage original (there are a lot of fakes on ebay!!!!) Orsonic or the Arche`system made in Germany by Acoustical Systems (modern solution - one of the best!).
And have a closer look at the internal wiering.....!!!!
One of the best cables you can put on the Tiffany connector to get in touch with your SUT is at the moment the Lyra Phonopipe - as it is also with the connection from SUT to the RIAA input - because the Lyra has a very, very low capacitance - and is perfectly shielded - sounds very, very open - nearly like no cable!
Think a little bit about it....the cpacitance calculation using a SUT comes with the fourth potency!!!!!

In the modern world there is the Graham Phantom II, maybe the Triplanar VII, Durand Talea, Da Vinci Vertu (to name a few) and of course the Frank Schröder designs.
Since a couple of years, we have to be more precise with Frank´s arms, because there is much more now, that "just" the classic Schröder magnet bearing arm.
Frank has developed the CB tonearm (CB stands for captive bearing) which is a tonearm with special hybrid bearings (with a measurable friction in the bearings wich is at the moment the world record for what is possible) and than there is the new LT tonearm, a design which uses a special linear tracking mechanism in a traditional design (so no air pumps needed) which is maybe one of the best armdesigns of our time.

With the Schröder designs you have the choice of armmaterials (mostly wood) which allows you to place the arm in a certain "eff mass class" - the different kinds of wood are not chosen to vary the sound (no tone control!!!!!) - it is just a matter of mass.
An ebony or snakewood armwand allows an eff mass with a 9,5" design around 20 - 22g, a bamboo armwand for example puts the arm in the 13g eff mass direction.

To make things more flexible, Schröder is using a kind of headshell plate, in which you can mont the cart (which has also some advantages in handling - if you ever tried to mont a cart with screws an nuts under a tonearm with a fixed headshell, you know, what I mean).
This headshell - plate can be varied in materials - and therefor also in weight.
Lets say, you have a bamboo armwand - the eff mass with the standard headshell plate made from a special sort of aluminium is 13g.
If you use a pertinax headshell plate you reach 9g - with a aluminium composite plate you get 11g, with aluminium (as explained above) the mass will be 13g, and with bronze/brass the same arm reaches 18g eff mass....
That is pretty much the same technique you have with detachable SME style headshell systems on a traditional tonearm.
But Frank does it with a different technique - so no aditional contacts (just one single run of cable from the clips to the connectors is used in his design) are needed!
That makes the Schröder designs very, very flexible.
You can use ONE tonearm with an eff mass calculations of 9g, 11g, 13g and 18g!

This is just an example - it is very helpful to contact Frank directly or use the help of his distributors.


The use of special treated wood makes them very effective in absorbing mechanical energy from the cart, and the magnetic bearing (on a classic Reference arm) let you adjust the damping of the whole construction in a style no other arm allows that (patented design).
A Schröder tonearm sounds more like no tonearm - it is something very special, which - to come back to our thread here - fits the needs of Koetsu carts perfectly (but not only Koetsu of course...).

A Schröder Reference on a Platine Verdier is "end of the game"!
As it would be also with an FR64 oder 66s....although the Schröder is much more flexible!

I use myself a Schröder Reference on a Nouvelle Platine with a modified tape drive mechanism - and it is a fantastic combination.

A FR64 or 66, a Schröder Reference - that is a completely different level of performance, as with the classic SME designs (which fits a DL 103 or an SPU nicely).
As I know, Jerome, you came along the way of Shindo - those philosophy is different.
With the Shindo way, you have to accept, that all components are made for each other (which is a very good thing) - means, the speakers have to have highly efficient, and high impedance, the tube amps (Class A designs with nearly no neg. feedback) are made exactly for those speakers, the preamplifiers and internal SUT´s are made with a classic SPU in mind, or if you use a T2 A23 SUT a classic EMT, with other A23 SUT designs a DL 103 is also a very nice combination.
All these carts love to live in a classic tonearmdesign, like the Ortofon 309, SME 3009 oder 3012 or EMT - an this is pretty much the advice given by the Shindo community...

If we break the rules on one point - let´s say, we use a Koetsu instead of a SPU, we will get a different picture, a picture, Ken Shindo did not had in mind, as he voiced the whole chain - a Koetsu might be too much of a good thing in the midband with Shindo electronic behind that cart....

This very tight product range, and mostly the kind of speaker systems, which work with that kind of way, was 20 years ago MY reason to leave that path.

But I think it is a very good way to choose the amplification from ONE designer - because in and output impedances have to match and also a line pre, a phono stage and a power amp are together ONE amplifier chain.

With the Koetsu, as it will be also the case with a Lyra for example, you leave the traditional Shindo concept - and that means, that you have to do the work of integrating the things now by yourself (Shindo did it for you, if you follow his rules).

Back on track......:
You will find a lot of FR arms and also Schröder Designs on Garrard, Commonwealth and other vintage idler drive tables, as also Platine, Micro Seiki 1500 or 5000, and Bauer DPS decks!


To view the thing from a different perspective.....Sugano voiced the carts also with tube amps and a 4 way horn system.
And as Jerome discovered in a different thread here the miracle of an original Western Electric 300B - a tube, which has a pureness in the midtone, which is in my book unreached till today - no other 300B design does it in the same way the original WE can do. That is also fact for other tube designs - as the famous Telefunken ECC83 Smooth Plates, which has also a complexity in the midband, a neutrality and a high portion of the real thing - no other modern 12AX7 can touch.
And to bring in other endtube designs - no KT88 today has the quality and pure sound of a original GEC KT88 Black Plates Triple Getter, or think about the EL 34 - the Mullard XF2 Double O Getter is also such a candidate, as it is the RCA 6L6 GC Black Plate and so on....

But to listen a Koetsu through a SET amp design using WE 300B and connecting this to a horn speaker system has something which makes us asking, what the hell have we reached in the last 80 years of HiFi and High End!

Good speaker matching concepts with a Koetsu are:

Horn loaded systems
Tannoy Alnico systems - like the old Autograph
Quad ESL 57
Magnepan
LS3/5a!!!!!
High resolution modern constructions as YG Acoustics for example


Which brings me to the LS3/5a

Jerome uses LS3/5a BBC monitors - these little wonders have a high frequency rise - as the original Quad ESL 57 also have (in a lesser degree).
Both designs do not like to be matched with carts which have the typical moving coil high frequency rise often seen today.
The Koetsu does have that rise in a much lesser degree, as a Lyra or Zyx.
Also the SPU and EMT does not have that extreme high frequency rise, as we see it in some more modern designs!
So a match of a Koetsu with a LS3/5a is made in heaven - as it is with the original Quad ESL 57!!!
The same can be said for the use of no oversampling multibit ladder DAC´s in such systems.

At the end - the cart is the beginning of a chain - the speaker is the end of that chain - both are transducers and bring much more "character" and differences to the table as a pre amplifier for example (which does not mean, that all preamps sounds equal or the differences in sound quality are small.....).

So we have to do us a favour, and think a little bit.....the choose of a cartridge is the beginning of the whole chain - and a Koetsu is something very special, which can work fantastic - as Puma Cat said here - you close a chapter - or it will perform, like a tool to fall asleep, as you can read it in nearly all hifi forums.
With a Koetsu it is a little bit the same, as with an Ortofon SPU - which will also not work in a lightweight modern tonearm design, which needs a SUT to sounds it best, and also a special SUT, not the same, the customer is using for his Benz LPS.... And such an SPU likes also to have a special kind of turntable design, which is rarely seen in the modern audio world.
What I want to say is....the beginning of the whole game - means the cart, will have a lot of consequences down the whole system - and a Koetsu is one of such designs....

If it is all done right you will get:

1. A resolution, which sounds completely natural - it is not analytical, and it is not rolled off in the treble

2. The treble is natural as breathing - no artefacts, no sybiliance, silky and very real

3. The upper presence (around 7Khz) is a little bit on the defensive side of neutral

4. The complete midband is to die for - full, warm and realistic - a human voice is 3 dimensional and real - sometimes spooky!

5. The upper bass is a little bit too smooth, it is not the last word in speed and attack.
But it gives us a certain flow, which let us forget time!

6. The bass should be tight, full and dynamic - it is not the last word in speed - but it is not flabby!!!!!
And it should reach deep - very deep!

7. The reverbs and rooms are shown in a very, very natural way with a little emphasis on bigger than real - which makes the spundscape often spectacular.
The sound comes with a lot of "greatness"

8. The dynamic is good - not outstanding, but good - the Koetsu sound is more about flow, and not so much about getting afraid off the next bass event

9. The Koetsu is able to project a human voice in front of you - so real, that it is sometimes frightening.

10. The Koetsu shows you the music as a whole picture!!!!

11. You get one of the most silent rides in the groove!!!!

Together ist makes the musical experience in front of our system not so much HiFi like, it´s more about being there, it´s more about understanding music not understanding and pinpointing to the engineering techniques the record has (for that you have your Lrya Atlas or Etna).

Some last words about the Range and how it will change the sound, as you climb up the ladder....

....you will get more finesse, more resolution (the stone body carts are not far away from the most advanced constructions today), more tightness in the bass and more space around the instruments.

That said - it does not mean, that the Koetsu Black is a typical entry level cartridge - the Black can give you already the whole picture of Koetsu - if you do the things right!

The DL 103 comes to mind - which one section of the High End scene is making it´s jokes about that cheap cart - another section (Shindo community comes to mind) uses this cart in different shells, with heavy tonearms, very expensive SUT´s on high mass tables or idler wheels decks together with highest level of tubes amplifier designs.

If someone has ever listened to such an implementation of a DL 103 - he will be stunned, what is possible with this little evergreen!

It is all about things done right - and concentration on the specific task - too much time is spent in changing gear, without deep knowledge of what we already have!



Have much fun

Ekki
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  #68  
Old 04-24-2018, 06:16 AM
AudioGremlin AudioGremlin is offline
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The combination of ye ancient Zeta tonearm with an equally ancient MRM Source turntable complete with my Koetsu Gold Onyx has a synergy that I wouldn't change. So far it has seen off various digital sources 20180318_160959.jpg
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  #69  
Old 04-24-2018, 10:23 AM
advanced101 advanced101 is offline
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Ill add a +1 for the FR64S, it displaced my Ikeda 407 CR1 for my Blue Lace. I also received a Groovemaster II with a Titanium Armwand to compare. Looking at the specs it looks like a great product, I will have to see how it sounds.
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  #70  
Old 11-13-2018, 02:27 PM
gardener gardener is offline
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