Accuphase E-600

[bvdiman]

Originally Posted by imprezap2

By the way bvdiman, would love to hear/see a video from your system, if it sounds as great as it looks, it will be fantastic.

Olaf, I'd love for a pro like you to do one for me!
Last time I did using a mobile ph and it was near a wreck..
Will have to get myself some proper gadget first before attempting another.

*Enjoy your trip! Well at least there's Youtube for when you miss your System..

[winniepoo]

Originally Posted by imprezap2

Hi Winniepoo,

Good you have them both at home, 3 days is cutting it a bit short though, hopefully you can get a good comparison done.

I guess both will be new and have to be broken in, my E-600 started out great straight out of the box and after it took a turn for the worse, took around two weeks before getting back and beyond the starting level.

The next four weeks I will have to miss listening to my system, travelling offshore again for a four week rotation.

Have fun trying the amplifiers

Olaf

Hi Olaf,
I apparently must have a source problem.
I'm only playing demateralized stuff (flac hd and dsd's) so my best shot so far concerning the source was a modified Oppo 105EU which gave me full satisfaction with my current power amp (a swiss made Rowen Absolute Two)
But strangely I seem not to be really keen on the results I have with both Accuphase that I find less clear and less direct than my current setup.
I've been told that the reason for that might be that my source (and mainly the DAC of my Oppo 105) could be the component limitating the 2 Accuphase amps.
What do you think ?

I'm ill so I will stay at home today and do some further listening before giving the amps back tomorrow.
I will try to have one of them back for listening in a few weeks once my retailer has recieved a DAC 40 to validate or invalidate this possibility

thanks in advance for your answers

[winniepoo]

Here are 3 videos in which I play the same song on the E-460, the E-600 and my current amp.
The sound is not top notch quality, but I personnally connot hear any different between the 3 amps which in my opinion confirms the statement that my source is limitating quality wise

E460 Vs E-600 Vs Rowen Absolute TWO

[imprezap2]

Hi Winniepoo,

Maybe I am wrong but I don't think the Oppo is that bad a source, not saying you can't do better, but it should be ok to choose an amplifier
pitty I cannot watch your video here as the wifi connection is to slow.

Your own amp is that also an integrated ?, or only power amp and using the Oppo as pre-amp (if that is possible)

I have tried to use my wadia as pre-amp also, that way I get more energy in the high frequencies, but the Accuphase is much better in creating a large and deep soundstage, and that is what I prefer.

Did you check the phase of the power connections to the Amps and source, this can also have quite a large influence.

In principle the Accuphase amps should be a good match for your Focals, but if it is not better then your old Amp it will be an easy choice.

Olaf

[winniepoo]

Hi Olaf,
my current amp is a power amp and I'm using the Oppo 105 as a preamp.

Honnestly I couldn't tell a soundstage difference between the amps. This might also come from my room.

Do you think that the lack of difference could come from the fact that when I use my Oppo as source on an integrated Accuphase it makes 2 preamps ?
I don't think there is a way I could bypass the Oppo's preamp part.
The only thing I could try and I will ask my retailer about it is to try an Accuphase with a DAC-40 in it so I can bypass Oppo's one which apparently wouldn't be such a great one.


Nevertheless, if in my current room and with my current source (that I would not like to change) I connaot hear any difference I don't think I'll spend an additional 5000€ to get an Accuphase.
I'll better save them and maybe invest them once I have a better room in a few years if I move appartment.

[nvp]

Hi winniepoo,

In general the sound difference between two good neutral amps (of different makes) that are perfectly comfortable driving a pair of speakers are not very large. As a result, if the two amps are transparent enough, what you will hear in the end is the sound of the CD player.

I have experienced this some years ago when comparing an Accuphase combo (DP-400 & E-350) to a Musical Fidelity combo (A5 cd player & A5 integrated). The speakers where a pair of Focal Utopia Micro Be. The Accuphase combo was significantly better than the Musical Fidelity one. However, when combining the Accuphase CD player with the A5 integrated the sound was very similar to that of the Accuphase combo. Similarly, when combining the A5 cd player with the Accuphase integrated the sound was very similar to the sound of the Musical Fidelity combo. That is, it was the cd player that had the largest effect on the sound.

Along the same lines, I have found that if a power amp is transparent enough, then bypassing the pre-amp by plugging in a CD player with volume control directly into the power amp can yield very good results. For example, I have found that when plugging in my Accuphase DP-600 cd player directly into my A-45 Accuphase power amp the sound became a bit thin (similarly to what Olaf has described above), whereas when plugging in the same cd player into my A-65 Accuphase power amp the sound was very good (better than the sound of the DP-600 & C-2410 & A-45 combo). Adding the C-2410 pre to the DP-600 & A-65 combo improved things a bit but certainly not enough to justify the price of the pre-amp.

Consequently, the only conclusion I can draw so far is that your Rowen power amp is very transparent. It might be worth while to try a dedicated CD player, but then you should also try a Rowen pre-amp - just to see how much of an improvement that will bring. Bypassing the pre-amp section of both Accuphase integrated amps might also be a good test.

Finally, when running all these tests it is important to use music that is more complex than the one in your clips. Things may change quite a bit on music with large dynamic variations and/or with a lot of bass.

Good luck and keep us posted!
Paul

[imprezap2]

Hi Winniepoo,

How do you control the volume, is this with the Oppo?

I am a bit amazed that you hear no difference between the amplifiers soundstage wise.
When I had my 1037be, I changed from Marantz PM11 to Accuphase E-550 and the differences where clearly.

I have to say that I spent a lot of time tuning the system, speaker placement, cabling, audio rack, maybe combined this makes my system more revealing.

Olaf

[imprezap2]

Hi Bvdiman,

I am definitly not a video pro, just playing with my digital camera, the external microphone made all the difference in the last posted video.

As corny as it sounds, I did listen to the video of my system here offshore, haha:-)

When I am away I do miss the late evening listening sessions, as good as my Sennheiser sounds with laptop and dac/amplifier, it cannot match the musical experience at home.

Olaf

[winniepoo]

Originally Posted by nvp

Hi winniepoo,

In general the sound difference between two good neutral amps (of different makes) that are perfectly comfortable driving a pair of speakers are not very large. As a result, if the two amps are transparent enough, what you will hear in the end is the sound of the CD player.

I have experienced this some years ago when comparing an Accuphase combo (DP-400 & E-350) to a Musical Fidelity combo (A5 cd player & A5 integrated). The speakers where a pair of Focal Utopia Micro Be. The Accuphase combo was significantly better than the Musical Fidelity one. However, when combining the Accuphase CD player with the A5 integrated the sound was very similar to that of the Accuphase combo. Similarly, when combining the A5 cd player with the Accuphase integrated the sound was very similar to the sound of the Musical Fidelity combo. That is, it was the cd player that had the largest effect on the sound.

Along the same lines, I have found that if a power amp is transparent enough, then bypassing the pre-amp by plugging in a CD player with volume control directly into the power amp can yield very good results. For example, I have found that when plugging in my Accuphase DP-600 cd player directly into my A-45 Accuphase power amp the sound became a bit thin (similarly to what Olaf has described above), whereas when plugging in the same cd player into my A-65 Accuphase power amp the sound was very good (better than the sound of the DP-600 & C-2410 & A-45 combo). Adding the C-2410 pre to the DP-600 & A-65 combo improved things a bit but certainly not enough to justify the price of the pre-amp.

Consequently, the only conclusion I can draw so far is that your Rowen power amp is very transparent. It might be worth while to try a dedicated CD player, but then you should also try a Rowen pre-amp - just to see how much of an improvement that will bring. Bypassing the pre-amp section of both Accuphase integrated amps might also be a good test.

Finally, when running all these tests it is important to use music that is more complex than the one in your clips. Things may change quite a bit on music with large dynamic variations and/or with a lot of bass.

Good luck and keep us posted!
Paul

Hello nvp,
Rowen amps do indeed have the reputation to be very transparent, as accuphase does. Rowen also has the reputation to be a little bit colder than accuphase which I thought I would be able to hear (live and on my recordings).
But I couldn't, and you gave a quiet clear explanation why. What I hear is the sound of my source. The problem is that I only listen to FLACS and DSD files that are stored on an external drive. I do not listen CD's, that's why I chose the Oppo 105 as a source, because it a an excellent universal player

Here is another clip of a more complex song with more basses (even if you cannot hear them all on the recording because of the shitty internal mic of my camera) : C2C - The Cell (E-460 vs E-600 vs Rowen)


@ Olaf : Yes I was adjusting the overall volume through my Oppo in order to ensure I would have the exact same volume on all my recordings and one would not artificially sound better because it's louder than the others.
Like I said I cannot bypass the pre-amp part of the Oppo, that's probably why I had the exact same results, because all the amps being very transparent, whay I actually heard was the sound of the Oppo's DAC and pre-amp.
Maybe I would have heard a difference if I had pushed the volume very high, but I didn't because I never listen to the music VERY loud, I did my testings within the volume range I usually listen in.

[imprezap2]

Hi Winniepoo,

Ok, so many variables, if the volume is digital you might loose resolution at low volume settings.
When connected to an integrated I guess you have used maximum volume on the oppo to get the best result.

My feeling with class A Accuphase integrateds is that they are neutral to the source with a hint of warmth, and the E-600 being the most neutral off all the Accuphase class A integrateds I owned.

You mentioned that you hear no change in soundstage between the three amplifiers, can you describe your soundstage, do you have energy all around your speakers, or is it mainly happening between the speakers?

Just trying to get a feel where you are with your system, maybe there are other issues in your system blocking a higher performance.

Olaf