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  #31  
Old 11-15-2019, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
Hey Mike,
Sure, here is an explanation of why using EtherREGEN in place of your switch would help the audio quality of your digital streaming front-end:

There are usually a number of problems going direct from consumer-grade routers:

1) the clocks are in generic consumer-grade routers are very cheap and induce clock phase noise, which is audible.

2) the flip-flops for these Ethernet switches are also very cheap, and contribute to the noise carried on top of the analog square waves that comprise digital bitstreams.

3) Most routers are powered by switch-mode power supplies, which are insidious with respect to producing low- and high-impedance AC leakage currents, which contribute significantly to clock phase noise and jitter. The impact of high-impedance leakage currents and their role in inducing clock phase noise and jitter is not well-known as this specific class of leakage currents were not even discovered until October, 2017.

4) The ports on routers typically have low-specification isolation tranformers and leakage currents can "jump" from port to port, contaminating more than one component in the chain.

5) There is no distinction between input and output ports on routers, which means that AC leakage currents can move from an "input" device e.g. a music server to an output device, e.g. a network bridge.

The EtherREGEN is a bespoke Ethernet switch product specifically developed for audio applications that mitigates and obviates these specific problems and source of noise as listed below:

1) the clocks in EtherREGEN are ultra-low-jitter/phase-noise Crystek CCHD-575 oscillators. Importantly, the clock distribution system (for the switch chip, the special Ethernet format conversion chips, and the high-speed flip-flops is run differentially throughout.

2) EtherREGEN has two isolated data/power/clock domains (the A side and the B side; separated by a "moat"). Each isolated domain is re-clocked using 10GHz-capable ultra-low-jitter (less than 0.8 picoseconds) differential flip-flops

3) The power supply for the EtherREGEN is specifically designed to prevent the passage of leakage currennts which induce clock phase noise.

4) the RJ45 module utilizes 12 transformer cores in each port (most Ethernet ports have 2~6 cores), and ground their center-taps through capacitors in a way that blocks port-to-port AC leakage currents.

5) ER uses an Active Differential Isolation Moat (“ADIM™”) that separates the A side (typically the input side)—to its ‘B’ side preventing leakage currents from being passed on to streamers, network bridges, and ultimately, DACs.

All of these specific features, functions and design embodiments are why ER provides notably superior audio quality for digital streaming than a generic, consumer-grade router.

Analogously, its no different than using a Shunyata Denali 6000/T V2 for distributing power vs. an el cheapo Monster power strip.
Would using the IsoRegen along with this product provide further improvement or is it recommended to use just one or the other?
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  #32  
Old 11-15-2019, 05:40 PM
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Would using the IsoRegen along with this product provide further improvement or is it recommended to use just one or the other?
The ISORegen does something completely different than EtherREGEN; it provides galvanic isolation for USB connections between "streamer/network bridge" and USB-connected DACs. EtherREGEN is an Ethernet switch.

The majority of DACs do not have galvanic isolation on their USB receivers. The ISOGEN will provide that function for those DACs.

Some DACs, e.g. the Schiit DACs that some of us here use that have the Gen 5 USB feature, have very high-quality galvanic isolation already built-in to their USB receiver ports. Schiit also uses quality isolation transformers for this rather than the usual opto-couplers; the isolation transformers provide higher levels and quality of isolation.
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Last edited by Puma Cat; 11-15-2019 at 05:42 PM.
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  #33  
Old 11-15-2019, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by IM3CPO View Post
The phase clock you are referencing only applies to Synchronous Ethernet. Synchronous Ethernet is not used on computer networks; its only used on cellular networks, VoIP phones, IPTV. Ethernet computer networks do not carry any clock synchronization information whatsoever.

If you have a DAC that requires an external clock generator via the ethernet cable, then you are injecting it yourself. No home router, etc., will support doing this..
I forwarded your comment verbatim on to Uptone today and received this reply (color emphasis mine):

"It is all about jitter/phase-noise traveling on ground planes and causing variation in clock edges, both overall and inside the chips. That’s why our differential isolation and reclocking works. Of course John [Swenson] will explain this properly in 10+ pages…"

When John publishes his paper (which I understand will include data), as mentioned previously, I will reference it, but here is some additional information with respect to "methods and materials":
"John recently acquired one of the most sensitive timing analysis systems ever built, the Wavecrest DTS-2079. He just received the boards he designed and the parts to populate them to create the required input module so he can use the system for measurement of jitter and noise on the I2S lines inside DACs. And he will be able to produce comparative graphs with variables like EtherREGEN and other things upstream.

While these will not be measures at the analog output of the DAC that the skeptics demand, I feel stongly that showing differences on the I2S lines inside a DAC will be every bit as valid in proving the existence of these effects and the efficacy of the technology we are employing."
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Last edited by Puma Cat; 11-15-2019 at 09:05 PM.
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  #34  
Old 11-16-2019, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
The ISORegen does something completely different than EtherREGEN; it provides galvanic isolation for USB connections between "streamer/network bridge" and USB-connected DACs. EtherREGEN is an Ethernet switch.

The majority of DACs do not have galvanic isolation on their USB receivers. The ISOGEN will provide that function for those DACs.

Some DACs, e.g. the Schiit DACs that some of us here use that have the Gen 5 USB feature, have very high-quality galvanic isolation already built-in to their USB receiver ports. Schiit also uses quality isolation transformers for this rather than the usual opto-couplers; the isolation transformers provide higher levels and quality of isolation.
Right, but let's say I dont have galvanic isolation built into my DAC ( I dont know if I do or not, McIntosh D1100) and I just want to start with one product, which way should I go and why?
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  #35  
Old 11-19-2019, 03:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
I forwarded your comment verbatim on to Uptone today and received this reply (color emphasis mine):

"It is all about jitter/phase-noise traveling on ground planes and causing variation in clock edges, both overall and inside the chips. That’s why our differential isolation and reclocking works. Of course John [Swenson] will explain this properly in 10+ pages…"

When John publishes his paper (which I understand will include data), as mentioned previously, I will reference it, but here is some additional information with respect to "methods and materials":
"John recently acquired one of the most sensitive timing analysis systems ever built, the Wavecrest DTS-2079. He just received the boards he designed and the parts to populate them to create the required input module so he can use the system for measurement of jitter and noise on the I2S lines inside DACs. And he will be able to produce comparative graphs with variables like EtherREGEN and other things upstream.

While these will not be measures at the analog output of the DAC that the skeptics demand, I feel stongly that showing differences on the I2S lines inside a DAC will be every bit as valid in proving the existence of these effects and the efficacy of the technology we are employing."
I would for sure be interested in reading their white paper when/if its ever released. Having said this, their reply aligns with my initial assumption of this product addressing issues (with the ground) that affect the chips ability to process/work in a consistent manner vs. the data being transmitted. He even admits you wont be able to measure the impact of the EtherREGEN at the analog outputs. This too leads me back to my first sentence in my initial post. To paraphrase, I am not going to poo poo on anyone who pays for one of these and says they can hear a difference in their system. But he admits there is not a way to actually measure the impact of this device on your systems audio signal quality. If you are OK with that, then more power to you..

To me, if ethernet is so adversely affected by these problems then dont use it directly. Use a computer and attach your DAC via USB. USB has its own issues, but they are measurable and can be dealt with.
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  #36  
Old 11-22-2019, 01:36 PM
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Default EtherREGEN on the way!

Maybe I’m being myopic here, but here goes...

Sending a file to my computer from the NAS thru a myriad of noisy routers, noisy switches, Ethernet cables picking up stray noise, etc, should not alter the file at all since the transfer is using the bulk transfer protocol - there’s robust data checks with correction. The file should arrive at my computer unchanged - a perfect copy.

So the beauty of this device would not be for the file transfer itself. Rather, it would eliminate noise that is generated by all the other devices from getting into my computer via the cat 6, correct?

Last edited by Cohibaman; 11-22-2019 at 01:46 PM.
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