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  #11  
Old 11-22-2020, 12:04 PM
PeterMusic PeterMusic is offline
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Qobuz is audibly superior to Tidal, which is audibly superior to Spotify. But on a high end system, even Qobuz will not match local files.

I added a Node2i to my secondary system (Bifrost, NAD 326, B&W CM-1), and it was terrific for Qobuz. But it could not keep up when I added it into my primary system in my signature.
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  #12  
Old 11-22-2020, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterMusic View Post
Qobuz is audibly superior to Tidal, which is audibly superior to Spotify. But on a high end system, even Qobuz will not match local files.

I added a Node2i to my secondary system (Bifrost, NAD 326, B&W CM-1), and it was terrific for Qobuz. But it could not keep up when I added it into my primary system in my signature.

Peter, with a good streamer, the difference between Qobuz and locally stored files becomes inaudible (when they are the same resolution of course).
I have a couple of files on my SSD in my streamer, and when I compare to the 24/192 files of Qobuz, I hear no discernible difference.
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  #13  
Old 11-22-2020, 12:26 PM
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I've never been happy with the sound quality from Spotify....it's mostly Qobuz and some Tidal for me. I've also been very impressed with Tidal's MQA recordings.

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  #14  
Old 11-22-2020, 12:34 PM
PHC1 PHC1 is offline
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I spent quite a few hours comparing carefully. Qobuz to Tidal to SACD and CD when I had all 4 to compare.

I can clearly hear the difference between Qobuz and Tidal MQA. I do not have an MQA dac to do the final unfold and as such the resolution drops to 13 bits from what I understand. That's how MQA works. But it is not the "resolution" difference I hear. It is a hardness of tone, a bit of glare and artificial edginess that is there which is not present on Qobuz.

MQA is a lossy not lossless process with their own trickery of the files. I can hear it and I don't like it. Perhaps if I had an MQA dac I may feel different if there is a difference in the final unfold. As it stands right now, I avoid Tidal MQA and go for the Qobuz version which is almost always a choice for me.


Qobuz to CD to SACD comparison. With the higher resolution and often even the 44.1 files are either identical or I had to really struggle to hear any difference. My best SACD sound identical to Qobuz to my ears.

My streamer is the Bryston BDP-Pi and I used Luxman D-06u for those careful comparisons but they had just as audible and repeatable end result over my headphone listening station at the computer. With a nice dac, SS and Tubes. The dac once again is not MQA either.


In conclusion. To my ears, I strongly prefer Qobuz and I have zero hesitation streaming for my whole listening experience and not spend money on physical media.


As always, YMMV and all that stuff...

Last edited by PHC1; 11-22-2020 at 12:38 PM.
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  #15  
Old 11-22-2020, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PHC1 View Post
I spent quite a few hours comparing carefully. Qobuz to Tidal to SACD and CD when I had all 4 to compare.

I can clearly hear the difference between Qobuz and Tidal MQA. I do not have an MQA dac to do the final unfold and as such the resolution drops to 13 bits from what I understand. That's how MQA works. But it is not the "resolution" difference I hear. It is a hardness of tone, a bit of glare and artificial edginess that is there which is not present on Qobuz.

MQA is a lossy not lossless process with their own trickery of the files. I can hear it and I don't like it. Perhaps if I had an MQA dac I may feel different if there is a difference in the final unfold. As it stands right now, I avoid Tidal MQA and go for the Qobuz version which is almost always a choice for me.


Qobuz to CD to SACD comparison. With the higher resolution and often even the 44.1 files are either identical or I had to really struggle to hear any difference. My best SACD sound identical to Qobuz to my ears.

My streamer is the Bryston BDP-Pi and I used Luxman D-06u for those careful comparisons but they had just as audible and repeatable end result over my headphone listening station at the computer. With a nice dac, SS and Tubes. The dac once again is not MQA either.


In conclusion. To my ears, I strongly prefer Qobuz and I have zero hesitation streaming for my whole listening experience and not spend money on physical media.


As always, YMMV and all that stuff...
Nice post, Serge.
appreciate your perspective.
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  #16  
Old 11-22-2020, 01:39 PM
PHC1 PHC1 is offline
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Nice post, Serge.
appreciate your perspective.
Glad to share my findings. Just wanted to add that the biggest thing to consider is the positive aspect of streaming. It is a wonderful revolution that took place and opened up an amazing opportunity to discover as MUCH music as ANYONE is willing to explore and enjoy.

It would simply be next to impossible to duplicate the experience of quality streaming with all the selections with actual physical media. Not financially for most people and certainly would be quite an effort to find all that physical media even if one wanted to spend a fortune on such an endeavor.

One small example. Took me a bit of time but I finally researched and added top 50 saxophone players to Roon folders. All organized the way I wanted them. I now have access to all of their albums. That is way more albums than I have ever owned or would be willing to own and I am only getting started with this Jazz project on my Roon.

I have discovered more music in the few years I have started using Roon/Tidal/Qobuz than my whole life as an audiophile (35 years now)


I will also just say that philosophically speaking, we are merely the custodians of everything we possess... We get to enjoy and hold on to the things for a predetermined amount of time and not a second longer... Can't take it with you. The Egyptians tried, there is no evidence it worked.

When it is my time, my kids won't have to try to figure out what to do with 1000's of CDs and LPs. The carbon footprint of my hobby is in the electricity it takes to keep my computer and gear powered, not producing plastic which will which eventually and inevitably wind up in a dump somewhere...

As it stands today, I see no negatives or shortcomings to streaming at all.

For the argument that some may present of the difference in SQ, give me a break, there are remasters of the remasters of the remastered stuff that was made from a master 40 to 50 years ago with some genres.... The SQ difference between the recordings and albums themselves is by FAR the greatest factor than any trivial differences in the streaming vs physical media itself.

Vinyl? Sure, the analog argument is valid. If you prefer your analog, keep spinning it but keep in mind, each time you do, it only gets worse in SQ due to inevitable wear and tear. A CD? CDs rot! A digital file will outlast any of us and go on indefinitely.
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  #17  
Old 11-22-2020, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PHC1 View Post
Glad to share my findings. Just wanted to add that the biggest thing to consider is the positive aspect of streaming. It is a wonderful revolution that took place and opened up an amazing opportunity to discover as MUCH music as ANYONE is willing to explore and enjoy.

It would simply be next to impossible to duplicate the experience of quality streaming with all the selections with actual physical media. Not financially for most people and certainly would be quite an effort to find all that physical media even if one wanted to spend a fortune on such an endeavor.

One small example. Took me a bit of time but I finally researched and added top 50 saxophone players to Roon folders. All organized the way I wanted them. I now have access to all of their albums. That is way more albums than I have ever owned or would be willing to own and I am only getting started with this Jazz project on my Roon.

I have discovered more music in the few years I have started using Roon/Tidal/Qobuz than my whole life as an audiophile (35 years now)


I will also just say that philosophically speaking, we are merely the custodians of everything we possess... We get to enjoy and hold on to the things for a predetermined amount of time and not a second longer... Can't take it with you. The Egyptians tried, there is no evidence it worked.

When it is my time, my kids won't have to try to figure out what to do with 1000's of CDs and LPs. The carbon footprint of my hobby is in the electricity it takes to keep my computer and gear powered, not producing plastic which will which eventually and inevitably wind up in a dump somewhere...

As it stands today, I see no negatives or shortcomings to streaming at all.

For the argument that some may present of the difference in SQ, give me a break, there are remasters of the remasters of the remastered stuff that was made from a master 40 to 50 years ago with some genres.... The SQ difference between the recordings and albums themselves is by FAR the greatest factor than any trivial differences in the streaming vs physical media itself.

Vinyl? Sure, the analog argument is valid. If you prefer your analog, keep spinning it but keep in mind, each time you do, it only gets worse in SQ due to inevitable wear and tear. A CD? CDs rot! A digital file will outlast any of us and go on indefinitely.


I see among the headphones you use is the Sennheiser HD600

Can you share your thoughts on it?
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  #18  
Old 11-22-2020, 03:09 PM
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Serge, your logic makes a lot of sense, with exceptions regarding ownership vs streaming:

I have had favorites in both Qobuz and Tidal disappear because of licensing issues. If I really love a particular recording I find on Qobuz, I’ll still buy it as a download so that I know I’ll have it wherever and whenever I want it without worrying about it suddenly disappearing.

I have also come across new recordings I really wanted to hear that were not available on either streaming service, which left purchasing physical media as the only option.

And then there are the recordings I have, mostly vinyl, that simply aren’t available anywhere else - never got reissued as cd, or went out of production, or got reissued but never made it to streaming services because they weren’t popular enough.
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  #19  
Old 11-22-2020, 03:09 PM
PHC1 PHC1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post


I see among the headphones you use is the Sennheiser HD600

Can you share your thoughts on it?
Sure, quite simply put, it has been the one pair of headphones I have used for probably half my life now. If there is only one object that defines my most favorite piece out of the whole audiophile experience, they would be it. Funny how that works. The least expensive and the one item that has seen thousands upon thousands of hours of use (I went through a few pairs in the last 20+ years as I foolishly sold a set before.)

Some see the world through rosy glasses, I hear my music and judge everything by my Sennheiser HD600... they are my rosy music makers.

They are not neutral like some of today's megabuck reference headphones but I also tried a few of those (Pure Beryllium drivers of Focal Utopia for example and quite a few others...) but I still keep coming back to the HD600.

I have also tried the newer version as Sennheiser had "upgraded" this cult classic model over the years and found them to be less comfortable and not quite as involving overall. I'm sure it is just my ears and preference but the HD600 is the kind of a headphone that does no wrong, no need to keep improving this particular model.

Sennheiser offers other "reference" and "studio" grade neutral and resolving models. The HD600 should be exactly what it is, for music lovers that do not want to "analyze" sound.

I consider the HD600 to be the equivalent of Koetsu cartridge. A bit of technicolor, with a sprinkle of warmth and BINGO, I can listen for hours on end, ANY genre of music and be satisfied with the result. They simply do NOTHING WRONG. A very smooth, musical, forgiving, lightweight, comfortable, romantic and engaging pair of headphones

Being 300 ohms, they LOVE tubes and tubes LOVE them. With a good tube amplifier, it is NIRVANA. One can spend multiples of the price of the HD600 and never be this satisfied.

The only other set of headphones I keep around is the artesian, hand-crafted ZMF Auteur Blackwood with bio-cellulose drivers which were actually designed by folks who used the HD600 as a reference back in the day. It is a treat but a much heavier set so my listening is limited with them by comparison. They get use on special occasions.


If there is one thing I would suggest to anyone wanting to get into music today, I would tell them to get a pair of HD600 while they still can (long discontinued now but still out there) and a quality headphone amp/DAC combo, preferably with tubes in the chain like some of the Schiit products or WOO Audio amps and a DAC. It would be enough to keep one very happy and busy discovering music. A music making system like that would not even break $1K

As this topic is on streaming, it also would be good to mention that a headphone system with a set of more forgiving headphones like the HD600, allow for a much broader enjoyment of all genres. I can easily go from Bach to Coltrane to Metallica to Sinatra and back and never feel lacking anything or wishing my system would be more forgiving.
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  #20  
Old 11-22-2020, 03:38 PM
PHC1 PHC1 is offline
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Serge, your logic makes a lot of sense, with exceptions regarding ownership vs streaming:

I have had favorites in both Qobuz and Tidal disappear because of licensing issues. If I really love a particular recording I find on Qobuz, I’ll still buy it as a download so that I know I’ll have it wherever and whenever I want it without worrying about it suddenly disappearing.

I have also come across new recordings I really wanted to hear that were not available on either streaming service, which left purchasing physical media as the only option.

And then there are the recordings I have, mostly vinyl, that simply aren’t available anywhere else - never got reissued as cd, or went out of production, or got reissued but never made it to streaming services because they weren’t popular enough.
Tony, I have not experienced the disappearance of any music from either Tidal or Qobuz yet but I had Roon act up just a few times and it was fine after a reboot.

I have purchased some SACD of my absolute favorites (Ben Webster mostly to tide me over if the internet goes down. Never does... ) and I have purchased some high res from the boutique studios. Incredible when played in native DSD from the laptop straight into the DAC over USB (the only way to get DSD file into it as streaming would convert down). Luxman has its own "player" software it came with for windows and mac for this purpose. I can count one hand the amount of times I listen to them by setting up a laptop though... At least I have a fancy USB cable for that purpose

So for me personally, the ownership of physical media has for the most part stopped all together. Juding by the numbers from the industry, only vinyl (has far surpassed the sales of CD and digital downloads, imagine that) has experienced some resurrection but it is still a drop in the bucket by comparison to the golden days of physical media sales.

Safe to say streaming is a model that has found strong support. Which of the streaming services go on and which may fail only time will tell.

Sometimes I feel only youtube will go on... Video killed the radio star all over again?

I am also not suggesting that one philosophy is better than the other. Some feel the need to collect, to handle, to clean, to physically interact with, a ritual to have. I get it, it is just no longer my preferred way of consuming music.
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