McIntosh Mc1.25kW vs Dan D'Agostino Progression Monoblock amplifiers

[PHC1]

Interesting video with impressions on MC1.25KWs vs D'Agostino Progression monos.

Once again it goes to show that experienced listeners will always have a preference, value certain characteristics and traits over others and simply hear differently.

I've experienced both McIntosh and D'Agostino in my own systems over the years, so I can relate to certain comments made in the video since the "house sound" will typically persist from one generation of products to the next if the designers stick to certain concepts and build philosophies. But this is not about my preference or opinions.

Interesting video because you don't often get a chance to hear an honest and objective opinion since the camp is usually very split either "for" or "against" McIntosh with the stigmas, stereotypes and prejudice.

https://youtu.be/td54mT0bGo4

[Charles]

Serge, thanks for the youtube video. It was very interesting to hear and appreciate the different reactions. The speakers (Sasha DAW's) were very excellent for doing a comparison like this as was the ancillary gear. The folks doing the evaluation were dedicated audiophiles. They seemed unbiased.

I have seen comments on AA like Dag's will blow Mac's away, etc and I knew this to be untrue because I owned a Krell FPB 700 for over 10 years. It is probably my favorite all time amp, fully class A, and Apexorca owns a similar smaller amp in his Fenice system. When I went to the 1.2KW's I noticed differences but nothing that made me unsatisfied with the 1.2KW. The Krell simply ran too hot and my rec room is very difficult to cool in the summer.

Both the 1.25KW and the Progressions are very fine amps and it is a matter of taste as to which sound you prefer. Having lived with the 1.2KW and the 1.25KW I can say that the latter is more refined in its presentation but still the same Mac house sound.

I have said and will repeat that Mac goes way way back. When solid state came out I believe they thought it would immediately replace tubes. Mac believed in measurements. If it measures better it must sound better. Right? So they created solid state amps that sound much like their tube amps by the use of autoformers.

Over the ensuing years, Mac learned a lot. Measurements do not tell the whole story by a long shot. The new generations of Mac amps exhibit the 70 year learning process Mac has gone through. The new 1.25KW with the new transistor, improved power supply, much improved binding posts, heat sinks, and parts upgrade, etc., represent 70 years of continual improvement in the basic MC2100 solid state stereo amp I owned 40 years ago.

The sound signature is the signature of a MC275 tube amp in solid state form. I couldn't agree more with the young man's take on the 1.25KW and I also agree with the counterpoint made by the older man.

Mac solid state sounds "tubey". The 1.25KW has no harshness. By adding really good cables, cords, conditioners, and IC's the resolution, detail, and sound stage of the Mac solid state sound can be significantly improved. I have experienced the improvement with my massive cable/power conditioner/cord upgrade I made a couple of years ago.

Because of their efficiency Mac's thrive with a good power conditioner like a Niagara 5000 and excellent cords with a 20 amp line. Many less efficient amps stress power conditioners significantly to the point they may be of little benefit or may actually be detrimental.

I would not recommend a power conditioner for many very expensive high current high watt solid state amps and yet power conditioners (all things being equal) are very beneficial in supplying the amp in question with a stable pure current, thus taking stress off the amp's power supply.

I have always been a speaker aficionado, feeling the speaker to be the most important gear. That's where I spent my money. Cables and IC's must be carefully chosen to enhance the amp, pre, and source, as well as the speaker. I am not surprised that the Dag pre worked well with the 1.25KW but I suspect the D1100 would sound equally good for much less expense.

All in all a great video and confirms much of what I have believed concerning McIntosh for years. Mac is a great value because it is competitive with super gear like Dags, AR, Burmester, Accuphase, Pass, Constellation, Solution, etc., at a reasonable price.

The one point that I will disagree on is the Mac meters. I believe they are extremely valuable. No company can produce meters like these. My hearing varries. In the morning it is more sensitive than at night. Using the peak hold it is possible to, regardless of the perceived loudness, know the actual loudness of the sound. 12 watts of loudness is the same in the morning and the evening, regardless of the perceived loudness.

In addition, the other day I was listening to Mahler's 8th at a volume of 73 on my D1100. The range of the symphony goes from less than .012 watts to about 120 watts peak hold. So when it was over I forgot to turn the volume down as I usually do. It was computer audio USB and very occasionally there can be a slight surge of noise and then total silence. This does not occur with music playing. This is usually heard at the computer not through the speakers, but there was a loud pop and a slight hum through the speakers.

The peak hold showed 1.2 watts through the XVX and about 8 watts through the Thor. So even though it was subjectively loud I knew no damage had been done. We all work to prevent unwanted transients through our systems but no matter, an occasional one is not preventable. It is good to know the wattage of them and be reassured that no damage could have occurred.

Mac meters are not only beautiful to me, they have become indispensable to the proper operating of my system.

Best

Charles

____________________
Charles Updated System: Wilson McIntosh Audioquest
Most recent updates: AQ Diamond USB replaces AQ Coffee; Wilson Audio Specialties Alexx replaced by Wilson Audio Specialties XVX Chronosonic; new subwoofer crossover; new Galaxy Grey Thors Hammer; Wilson Pedestals
Amps: McIntosh 1.25KW’s (3) set on floor on custom made cultured marble slabs
Preamp and DAC: McIntosh D1100
Sources: McIntosh MCD1100 SACD player, MVP881 BR player, MVP851 DVD player, MR87 tuner, Marantz 510LV Laser Disc player, ASUS laptop USB (JRiver Media Center 23)
Speakers: Wilson Audio Specialties XVX Chronosonic
Sub-woofer: Wilson Audio Specialties Thor’s Hammer (1) horizontal lie and Wilson Watch Controller (abbr: WC)
Cables main system: Audioquest Wel Signature speaker cables and balanced IC (preamp to amps); Wel Signature AES/EBU balanced digital IC for CD playback; Audioquest Diamond optical (1) for tuner, (1) for BR player, and (1) for LD player for total of (3); Diamond USB cable; McIntosh MCT cable for SACD playback; Dragon power cords (5 HC cords and 3 source cords for total of 8); Thunder HC power cord for tuner; cables for DVD player not listed
Cables subwoofer system: Audioquest Redwood speaker cable (1); Wolf balanced subwoofer IC from WC to amp; Wind balanced IC from preamp to WC; Hurricane HC (2) and Dragon HC (1) power cords
Power conditioners: Audioquest Niagara 7000 (1) and Niagara 5000 (3); (4) dedicated 20-amp lines with no. 10 wire straight out of fuse box
Isolation: Wilson Pedestals
Cabinet: Double Custom Woodwork & Design (CWD) solid walnut cabinet on large casters; holds all sources and preamp; also, Niagara 7000; 11 feet minimum distance from speakers
Acoustic Treatments: Room and Echo Tunes
AC: Dedicated to this room only, an ultra-high efficiency and quiet recently installed Ruud split system 3-ton heat pump.
Room (mancave): 40’L x 15.5’W A-frame; max ceiling height 8’ min 5’; wall within wall construction built of 2 x 6’s; built over garage with custom hardwood floor with gym seal with over 40 Lowes stiffened wooden I-beams supporting floor; complete isolation from rest of house.

[PHC1]

Charles, good post. Your entusiasm for McIntosh is not without merit. McIntosh makes very well engineered products. You may not find all the “boutique and exotic parts” inside them like you will with some other brands but McIntosh sticks to the reliable, proven and easily sourced parts as well as obviously making their own. Not to mention many innovative and truly useful features and circuit protection designs. The here today, gone tomorrow source of boutique caps, resistors, etc is just not smart for a company the size of McIntosh.

The audiophile nervosa may say I want those (insert your favorite caps, resistors,etc) and it often easily wins. One can appreciate the “different” presentation of many other amps but one has to notice the fact that McIntosh owners tend to hold onto their gear for years and even decades while many other amps come and go with often the speed of a revolving door.

It is often the case of stereotypes and group bias confirmation, echoing the opinions of others without having sat down and deeply listening without prejudice. That’s what the audiophiles in the video did and it was refreshing.

Having said that, it is still personal preference of the individual writing the not so insignificant check for a system and we all have our preference and ideas of what would be best for our own system.

One thing I may disagree on is the actual benefit of chasing lofty cables and power conditioners.

Autoformers are a very, very, long strand of not so audiophile piece of wire. The hundred feet or so of the autoformer wire will not be enhanced by the last 8 feet of a very expensive speaker cable. You just need to be sure the speaker cable is not worse than the autoformer wire itself.

Audio Signal is also an alternating current waveform so it will travel back and forth through your speaker, cables and autoformer with disregard as to the price of them.

Yes, I’ve rolled cables to no end. My McIntosh monoblocks had zero objections to $125 speaker cables as well as $12,000. Not much gain there. It buys a peace of mind though.

[SCAudiophile]

Good posts,...having heard the Mac and D'Ags in question I would suggest the Momentum latest monos would be more of a fair test and one worth trying.

[Charles]

Originally Posted by PHC1

Charles, good post. Your entusiasm for McIntosh is not without merit. McIntosh makes very well engineered products. You may not find all the “boutique and exotic parts” inside them like you will with some other brands but McIntosh sticks to the reliable, proven and easily sourced parts as well as obviously making their own. Not to mention many innovative and truly useful features and circuit protection designs. The here today, gone tomorrow source of boutique caps, resistors, etc is just not smart for a company the size of McIntosh.

The audiophile nervosa may say I want those (insert your favorite caps, resistors,etc) and it often easily wins. One can appreciate the “different” presentation of many other amps but one has to notice the fact that McIntosh owners tend to hold onto their gear for years and even decades while many other amps come and go with often the speed of a revolving door.

It is often the case of stereotypes and group bias confirmation, echoing the opinions of others without having sat down and deeply listening without prejudice. That’s what the audiophiles in the video did and it was refreshing.

Having said that, it is still personal preference of the individual writing the not so insignificant check for a system and we all have our preference and ideas of what would be best for our own system.

One thing I may disagree on is the actual benefit of chasing lofty cables and power conditioners.

Autoformers are a very, very, long strand of not so audiophile piece of wire. The hundred feet or so of the autoformer wire will not be enhanced by the last 8 feet of a very expensive speaker cable. You just need to be sure the speaker cable is not worse than the autoformer wire itself.

Audio Signal is also an alternating current waveform so it will travel back and forth through your speaker, cables and autoformer with disregard as to the price of them.

Yes, I’ve rolled cables to no end. My McIntosh monoblocks had zero objections to $125 speaker cables as well as $12,000. Not much gain there. It buys a peace of mind though.

Serge, I agree with many of your observations. I think current quality more important than cables and that's the reason I like the Niagara 5000 because of their huge current reservoir and the 7000 because of their isolation transformers.

Here's a point about cables and IC's. They are audible. They have a sound. Once the signal leaves the amp, regardless of whether it has a transformer or autoformer, or is OTL, the cable and its quality affects the sound.

The resolution and refinement of the sound, for example, is enhanced by very high quality silver. Mac solid state thrives on silver because of their tube like quality of providing less edge at the expense of ultimate detail. Silver allows me to wring out every last bit of resolution from my Mac's, both amp, pre, and source, whatever their ultimate resolution, refinement, and sound stage is. You are making the assumption that copper wire inside an autoformer negates the quality of the speaker cable. I haven't found this to be true. I can't speak for others.

If you compare the electrical properties of copper and silver, I think copper would equal silver, yet they sound different. The autoformer can't affect this difference because it occurs after the autoformer does its magic.

Is the expense of this difference worth it? For me, definitely. After having experienced a solid silver WEL Signature system from input to output and the improvement it makes in the Mac sound, its worth the expense.

Best

Charles

[Charles]

Originally Posted by SCAudiophile

Good posts,...having heard the Mac and D'Ags in question I would suggest the Momentum latest monos would be more of a fair test and one worth trying.

Is it your opinion that the Momentum is superior to the Progression?

Best

Charles

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by Charles

If you compare the electrical properties of copper and silver, I think copper would equal silver, yet they sound different. The autoformer can't affect this difference because it occurs after the autoformer does its magic.

Is the expense of this difference worth it?

Yes, Charles, “magic” is worth it when it comes to audio. It is magic because No One has been able to neither measure nor explain it. Including the engineers who designed your McIntosh amps and McIntosh was very adamant against aftermarket cables for many decades.

But there are many things we can neither measure nor explain. Including the most basic questions of them all.

Just don’t engage in blind tests and cables too much, it gets very confusing.

[PHC1]

I’ve posted this elsewhere before but it never ceases to amaze me when scientists by day, turn into voodoo magic audiophiles by night. As soon as the system switch goes on, all rational scientific explanations are no longer needed nor apply.

Measurements are good, measurements are bad? We want accurate measurements with everything in life but not when it comes to audio.

Psycho-acoustics are unexplainable, we think we hear something according to our memory...

When we measure that by which we design and build audio in the first place and we come up with nothing, we say our ears know best anyway and there is no need for measurements.

It’s all very convenient. So be it, no harm done, only the wallet will hold a grudge in the end.

[PHC1]

In the absence of instruments that can test the theories of that which can not be explained in audio, we rely and fall back on one instrument we think is most important of all. But I’ve already posted many scientific articles on what memory is and all the glitches with that instrument. Well documented stuff. Here we are then...

But that’s all neither here nor there, the most important philosophy of all of this is how your system engages you and gets you closer to music. If your system can unravel the music’s message, so that you lose yourself in it for hours on end and derive great satisfaction, well, all the brand label comparisons are only taking away from the precious listening time.

Rant over. Back to music....

[Charles]

Originally Posted by PHC1

Yes, Charles, “magic” is worth it when it comes to audio. It is magic because No One has been able to neither measure nor explain it. Including the engineers who designed your McIntosh amps and McIntosh was very adamant against aftermarket cables for many decades.

But there are many things we can neither measure nor explain. Including the most basic questions of them all.

Just don’t engage in blind tests and cables too much, it gets very confusing.

I've always found it amusing that if you ask Mac, the party line is that all their gear sounds identical.