What Next?

[Shindoug]

I’d like to get peoples opinion on what they feel is the best upgrade approach for entry level Shindo owners. Hopefully this will be illuminating for others who find themselves in a similar situation. (My system: Source – Merrill Heirloom MS2 / Dynavector 20X2H. Amp - Shindo Aurieges / Montille. Speakers – Ref 3A Studio Master. Cables – Auditorium 23) It appears the Shindo upgrade mantra would be to get the best preamp possible, but at what stage does it make sense to pay attention to some of the peripheral issues? So lets say you had 5k to spend which of the following would you upgrade next ? Or, more hypothetically, in what order would you address the following list?

Accessories – Mr T, Shindo IC’s etc
Front End – say EMT cartridge with Auditorium SUT
Preamp – Monbrisson
Amp – Cortese / Montrachet
Speakers - ???
More music
Something else?

Getting into a more surreal realm: At what point along the Shindo path should one consider a 301 or Latours? Does one get most bang for the buck continually upgrading amps? Or given the exalted status of the Shindo 301 and Latours would it just make sense to start saving for these immediately in lieu of continual smaller upgrades?

I’m very curious what others experiences have been and how you would spend your hard earned $$$$

Cheers.
Doug

[Mikeyc]

Hi Shindoug, interesting question. I think changing speakers will probably cause the most profound diffference in sound. The 3As are relatively efficient, but since they're bookshelf speakers, they may not have the bottom end of a floorstander. I went from Gershman Avant Gardes (87dB) to Devore Super 8s (90 dB) and that was a nice improvement. Later I upgraded to Coral Beta 8s (101 dB) and there was also a big improvement there, more "pop" and texture to the music.

I note you have a Dyna 20X, that was also my previous cart and when I moved to the EMT JSD 5 with A23 SUT it was a huge jump, but then again the MSRP difference is pretty big also. I've compared my Aurieges with friends' Monbrisons and also my Montille to their Haut Brion and although there is an improvement, its relatively smaller, maybe 10%-15% if you want to put numbers to it. Throughout the line, the Shindo House sound remains, and you notice subtle changes in details, textures and tonality. You'll have to weigh the cost of upgrading the green boxes and the incremental improvement with your wallet and means.

Cables and ICs also add to the synergistic and holistic sound of the system, I'd say this is maybe 10%? My last addition was a Mr T and I'd also say this was the "cherry on top", another small incremental change, but overall it all adds up to give you the Shindo house sound the way the Master intended. This is all IMO, in MY system and YMMV so take it for what its worth.

[sibelius]

I'd lean toward speakers or source first. After those two I'd look at upgrading preamp.Then amp (depending on if you prefer the tonal flavor of the F2a,6CL6 or EL34 over the Montille.) I'd wait on accessories until you are happy with everything else. My $.02.

[lowens]

For me it's a matter of thinking 5-10 years ahead. Do you ultimately want an all Shindo based system, from source to speakers?, is that even possible given budget constraints? Will I be residing in the same house?, with the same listening room? Also, how important is vinyl, to me it's not all that important as I do not have a large LP collection and dropping $30k of a Shindo 301 seems unlikely.
Think about the ultimate shindo pieces you wish to obtain, for pre-amps is in the Masseto or the VR, or higher? The amps seem more about sonic flavor over which one is better. Do you want push pull or 300b based?
You have a very well balanced system as it stands now. For $5k I would tend to maximize its capabilities and purchase a step up and EMT cartridge. If you have $10k to spend, then the upgrade has more clarity, I would buy a better preamp.
For preamps, I wouldn’t go from a Aurieges to a Monbrison, I would recommend jumping to at least a Masseto or VR. I cant see many people itching to upgrade from a VR.
For me I jumped right into the land of Shindo, with the purchase of mid-level pieces that I knew I would keep for a longer period of time compared to entry level pieces.
The other thing to consider is component isolation. I see some shindo owners who sent $20k on amp/pre but utilize poor quality racks, or set their pieces on glass shelves, in metal framed racks.

[Mikeyc]

Originally Posted by lowens

The other thing to consider is component isolation. I see some shindo owners who sent $20k on amp/pre but utilize poor quality racks, or set their pieces on glass shelves, in metal framed racks.

Good point Lowens, my next upgrade is a good rack.

[Shindoug]

Thanks for the thoughtful feedback so far. With regard to speakers, this is the area that I’m actually In the process of upgrading (In fact I paid for a pair back in May – still awaiting delivery. It’s taking a lot longer than expected..sigh.) I had just sold the last of my pre Shindo gear, hence wondering what to do with that $$.
Mikeyc, your insight into the EMT is very useful having also started with the Dynavector. Very interesting that you found the cartridge upgrade to be more pronounced than the amp upgrade – and that fits with Lowens feeling that the upgrade from Aurieges to Monbrison is relatively small. Hadn’t thought about the rack…box furniture racks seem to be very popular.

[pitch perfect]

Originally Posted by Shindoug

I’d like to get peoples opinion on what they feel is the best upgrade approach for entry level Shindo owners. Hopefully this will be illuminating for others who find themselves in a similar situation. (My system: Source – Merrill Heirloom MS2 / Dynavector 20X2H. Amp - Shindo Aurieges / Montille. Speakers – Ref 3A Studio Master. Cables – Auditorium 23) It appears the Shindo upgrade mantra would be to get the best preamp possible, but at what stage does it make sense to pay attention to some of the peripheral issues? So lets say you had 5k to spend which of the following would you upgrade next ? Or, more hypothetically, in what order would you address the following list?

Accessories – Mr T, Shindo IC’s etc
Front End – say EMT cartridge with Auditorium SUT
Preamp – Monbrisson
Amp – Cortese / Montrachet
Speakers - ???
More music
Something else?

Getting into a more surreal realm: At what point along the Shindo path should one consider a 301 or Latours? Does one get most bang for the buck continually upgrading amps? Or given the exalted status of the Shindo 301 and Latours would it just make sense to start saving for these immediately in lieu of continual smaller upgrades?

I’m very curious what others experiences have been and how you would spend your hard earned $$$$

Cheers.
Doug

Hello Doug,

Your dealer could easily demonstrate the clear differences between the Aurieges, Monbrison, Masseto,etc.

From those who have heard the preamps, there are clear and distinct differences as you move up the line. It is not subtle.

The step from an Aurieges to a Monbrison is profound.. and so on.

I wouldn't recommend this for you, though, as the Aurieges is incredible, and I recommend maximizing what you already own.

The recommendation for a step up transformer and low output moving coil cartridge is a fine one. It is what I would recommend, as well.

Your cartridge is below the 3mv threshold to work optimally into the MM input of the Aurieges. The 2.8mv probably works and sounds good, but a step up will yield significant improvements in low level musical cues, dynamics and overall resolution..drive.. immediacy.. Transformers add an explosive quality to the music that can't be beat.

-Matt

[restock]

I agree with Matt and MickeyC that the cartridge and step-up upgrade would be appropriate for a first step. The Dyna is a solid cartridge, but it is not close to the resolution or refinement of the EMT cartridge.

I would also consider the speaker side - I personally like the Devores with the Shindo, but you could also consider vintage Altecs or single driver Auditorium 23. A pair of Cain Abbys worked very well with my 6v6 Montille. The Devore would guarantee more refinement, resolution and flow than Reference 3A IMO.

Also, I would not discount the difference a Haut Brion/Cortese and Monbrison makes over the Montille/Aurieges. Much more texture, richness, extension, lots more bass and foundation. Frankly a huge step IMO, but maybe for a later stage. From my experience this is much bigger than a cartridge+step up change.

Last but not least - a Shindo IC between Shindo amp and Shindo preamp is a no brainer. You will need one anyway, even if you upgrade further up the Shindo line.

Good luck and enjoy what you have as well.

P.S.: I moved from Monbrison+Montille 6v6+Cain Abby to Monbrison+Haut Brion+Devore Super8 and each combination was very special, a great match, and very enjoyable.

[restock]

Also - getting more vinyl always makes sense

[Shindoug]

Matt / Restock. Thanks for advice –
Another 2 votes for going the cartridge route. I’m amazed at how clear and uniform the advice has been. It’s very reassuring knowing that everyone has such consistent experiences in obtaining the sound they love. This consistency and reproducibility of experiences from system to system really points to there being something objective to the Shindo sound. Not that I need objective “scientific” data to confirm that I like what I’m hearing, but it does confirm that Shindo may be a step closer to the truth and not so much a smoke and mirror phenomena. There is no way there would have been such a focused consensus on some other forums I’m familiar with.

As far as enjoying my current system – I am enthralled. As I mentioned earlier, I’m awaiting a new set of speakers (They’ve been on order since May) I am getting so much enjoyment from my system right now that I haven’t been bothered in the slightest that they are taking so long. I’m completely satisfied as is.

Doug