Images - True or False?

[James Tanner - Bryston]

Hi All

I have been wondering what your thoughts are on ‘IMAGING” as it applies to an audio/video system. Some say they feel different electronics (preamps, amps etc.) can provide a different perspective and soundstage presentation.

At the recording end of the chain, depending on the microphone arrangement and set-up, the amplitude (volume) is generally used to place specific instruments or voices in space. The louder sounds appear more forward the lower sounds appear further back etc. Images between the speakers, as we all experience in our typical stereo set-up, is a function of the amplitude levels being equalized or averaged between the left and right speaker to provide our ear/brain with a phantom image. Phase is used to place images outside the boundaries of the loudspeakers – Q Sound comes to mind. Also the timing and arrival times being recorded with simpler microphone techniques are used given that the left ear hears the sound slightly before the right ear and visa-versa.

So after all this ramble my question is – where do you think the images come from in the playback scenario. My experience has taught me that the LOUDSPEAKER and the PLACEMENT in the room is the main contributor to how an audio system will image and that electronics (assuming adequate design) in the signal chain (other than the ones used in the recording to manipulate the images as the engineer sees fit) are not contributing all that much to the overall soundscape?

[klipschfan]

Would have to agree that loudspeaker placement is the most crucial step for imaging.

Have found that there are additional points to consider after that will enhance the soundstage making it deeper, wider, higher and where the entire front wall becomes the soundstage where the loudspeakers disappear.

Some of the products that I have used that enhanced my imaging and soundstage are-
Power conditioning
Outboard DAC
Isolation products
Cables
Tweaks

Currently my System is producing the best soundstage that I have ever had. The following gear has really helped to attain it and squeeze out the best possible sound.

Synergistic Research-
Tesla Apex cables & Tesla PowerCell 10SE

Symposium-
Ultra Padz & Ultra Platforms

Alan Maher designs-
Infinity CBF & Signature Infinity

[schaefer11]

My experience is how the recording is done is #1. I listen to mostly classic rock, blues and some contemporary jazz. Frankly, other than pan potting from left to right, I do not hear much "imaging". However, I have heard recordings and systems with much different imaging characteristics.

I have to say that some of the imaging I have heard on recordings played on some systems is not how music has sounded live. Live music seems to me to be heard without the imaging we think of in our audio systems. It seems more mono frankly, with more subtle right/left cues and no "depth". I think some speakers exaggerate imaging, which sounds great, but is not necessarily like what you would hear live.

Speaker set up would be #2, only because they cannot reproduce what is not recorded, no matter how well they are placed.

I have not done any A/B comparisons with electronics on the systems playing the recordings where I heard the more pronounced imaging, so I cannot really comment there. On my systems, listening to the music I listen to, electronics seem to make little or no difference. Nothing like the differences in recordings and speaker placement.

[jdandy]

James.......I agree with you with respect to speaker location being crucial to a well defined sound stage, or lack thereof. No matter how well placed speakers are, though, we are captives to the recording engineer's whims when it comes to the location of instruments and voices within the sound stage. Volume and silence play the key rolls, followed by pan and phase when location cues are determined by the ear.

I also believe the quality of electronic components plays a formidable roll in how well a sound stage is created. Without supreme channel seperation, zero or near zero crosstalk between channels, and wide dynamic range, a sound stage will ultimately be compromised, and consequently reduced. A system's electronics must be able to bring forth all the information that has been recorded, even down to the softest, and most minute of audible details. Without this type of accuracy a sound stage will suffer degradation, declining to a lower level of quality.

Yes, speaker placement, room boundries, and acoustical properties of a listening room play the dominant roll in creating a spectacular sound stage, providing it has been recorded as such, but the ability of a sound system's electronics to flesh out every last micro and macro detail in a recording from a jet black silence also plays an extremely important part in the creation of a convincing sound stage, and a believable illusion.

[Face]

As far as playback goes, I would have to say speaker placement comes first.

This comes from my experience of hearing terrible speakers image in terrible rooms, terrible speakers image in good rooms, and vice versa.

At work, we had some sort of all in one DVD player receiver with small cube speakers(single drivers). And even in our concrete/metal room with windows on one side wall, I was still able to demonstrate to my co-workers what imaging and a soundstage was with proper speaker placement.

I've also had a few interesting experiences at home. I picked up a pair of Insignia/Best Buy speakers for my brother. For shits and giggles, I hooked them up to my main rig. Even with their terribly audible driver breakup and lumpy frequency response, they imaged much better than expected . The soundstage wasn't as good as my primary speakers and the images weren't as solid, but they did a pretty good job considering.

Another interesting experience was while tube rolling. I swapped out the preamp tubes in my Manley Stingray for another pair of the "supposedly" same tubes. The soundstage totally collapsed down to the same height of my speakers.

I have also found that transparent gear usually images better, but doesn't have as much of an effect on soundstage. And sometimes swapping out items such as cables(MIT) can have more of a profound effect on imaging and soundstage than changing other pieces of gear(CDP's, amps, etc...).

In conclusion, I believe placement is the most important factor, but any other link in the chain can also have a dramatic effect.

[weird]

Originally Posted by jdandy

James.......I agree with you with respect to speaker location being crucial to a well defined sound stage, or lack thereof. No matter how well placed speakers are, though, we are captives to the recording engineer's whims when it comes to the location of instruments and voices within the sound stage. Volume and silence play the key rolls, followed by pan and phase when location cues are determined by the ear.

I also believe the quality of electronic components plays a formidable roll in how well a sound stage is created. Without supreme channel seperation, zero or near zero crosstalk between channels, and wide dynamic range, a sound stage will ultimately be compromised, and consequently reduced. A system's electronics must be able to bring forth all the information that has been recorded, even down to the softest, and most minute of audible details. Without this type of accuracy a sound stage will suffer degradation, declining to a lower level of quality.

Yes, speaker placement, room boundries, and acoustical properties of a listening room play the dominant roll in creating a spectacular sound stage, providing it has been recorded as such, but the ability of a sound system's electronics to flesh out every last micro and macro detail in a recording from a jet black silence also plays an extremely important part in the creation of a convincing sound stage, and a believable illusion.

Ditto to all this... its worth noting too that most people live in an environment that doesn't allow for much adjustment to speaker placement. Concert bowl setup (1/3 of the way in) placement is usually an out.. no chance. A real big problem with improper placement, is the sound stage only gets one or two volume settings that sound good, and usually it isn't a loud setting. But good electronics help band-aid the whole affair and help us get the best out of the hand we are dealt.

[PHC1]

Proper speaker positioning and equally important room acoustics. Followed by gear and cables. I am leaving the actual recordings out, since they can vary greatly, live/studio, phase tricks, etc...

If you want a holographic soundstage, treat the room and work hard on speaker placement in that room.

I've witnessed a complete and total transformation of both my own and other guy's systems when acoustic treatments were deployed as well as experience of positioning the speakers in the room. Many orders of magnitude greater than swapping gear and cables in and out, that is of course as long as we are talking high end audio components, not mid-fi to high fi.

I first witnessed this many years ago in my friends system when he had assembled a rather serious high end system consisting of Krell, Convergent Audio Technologies, MIT, ProAc, VPI... We were both impressed by how good it sounded in his spacious listening room down in the basement. Neither one of us was prepared for what happened when he had his whole room fully treated with various acoustical treatments. Our jaws were on the floor... You want to talk about soundstage and imaging? How about soundstage that breaks the physical barriers of the room? How about performers that you could not only "see" on the soundstage but feel their presence in the room.... Spoooky....

[Harmonics West]

1. Recording/Engineering/ Mastering on PMC's
2. PMC's/Bryston
3. Room Placement
The rest is getting the room perfect. Acoustical work!

[f1 fan]

+1....

I agree with Serge

Dave

[weird]

Originally Posted by f1 fan

+1....

I agree with Serge

Dave

who is serge?