PPP's/RGPC600s(s)

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by Ryan Conway

Wow, this is getting a little heated.

For those unfamiliar with Pure Power I though I might drop in and give you all a little background on their products.

The products are based on the same UPS technology used for your computers. Yes, they do use a very high grade, but this is not a good solution for high end audio systems. As with most UPS solutions they use a class D amplifier to produce the output. While class D has made some incredible strides in terms of performance, it is not ready for AC Regeneration as PS has defined the category.

The problem with using class D amps in an AC Regenerator is the noise level of the output. We began using class D amps in our audio products a decade ago. Our HCA-2 hit the market in 2001 and was the first class D amp to receive a Stereophile "Class A"'. Despite all the advancements in class D it remains a poor choice for AC regeneration. While you can get the output distortion to respectable levels without a load, when you apply a load to these class D regenerators the distortion jumps through the roof. In our testing of the Pure Power products just a 300 watt amp load resulted in distortion levels exceeding what the wall was providing.

There are many benefits to using class D, but as far as we are concerned the negatives outweigh the benefits in AC Regeneration.

Nothing heated about it, just having some friendly fun and sharing our experiences.

Ryan, I am not going to argue the Class D issue, I am not a big fan of Class D but I do know that plenty of amps and subs use it. So if it works for manufacturers like Jeff Rowland, NuForce, JL Audio and many other respectable guys in the industry, surely it is acceptable in a power conditioner.

Now, in terms of noise, using your own Noise Harvesters, they barely blink when plugged into the back of Pure Power and no more than they do plugged into the back of the Power Plant Premier... Want to see some real disco action with them? Plug them into the RGPC units... Especially the Pole Pig.

Now, as an experiment, I do go around the house, outside my dedicated line in the stereo room and plug various conditioners and noise harvesters into various receptacles around rooms that share the same line. It is true that the PPP "polutes" a bit less outside itself, judging by the action of the Noise Harvesters, another words it does not feed quite as much noise back into the lines. Is that important when all my gear is on a dedicated line and plugged in on the back end of the Pure Power that runs clean? Nope.

I also think the specs of the Pure Power speak for themselves. 48 amps peak and 4200w peak is nothing to sneeze at.

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by Ryan Conway

PCH1 - It sounds like you might be affected by some line sage when you are hitting the peaks you mentioned. The battery aspect of the Pure Power would correct these sags and would account for the differences when listening to extended peaks. You could accomplish the same UPS benefit, with the low distortion output of a Premier, by combining our PowerPack 1500mkII with the Premier.

Or another solution would be to get a big dedicated panel, such as Ivans.

Sags? Absolutely. I only have a 200 amp service panel in my house. My Class A amps are drawing 660w at IDLE not to mention all the other gear plugged in! Not everyone has a 400-500 amp service. Not doubting your advice on the PowerPack, I am sure it works and I hope that it also has instanteneous transfer? Knowing what I have experienced now, I would absolutely consider adding it because it simply increases dynamics like no other non-battery backup power conditioner I have experienced.

Now, there is one thing that I strongly prefer and I don't know what causes it but the Power Plant Premier "leans out" my sound rather noticeably.... This is not something I am willing to compromise with. I had tried various combinations of PPP and RGPC to get my tonal balance back and was able to get it close but PurePower simply sounds more natural, harmonically rich and tonaly balanced. Maybe that is something that can be addressed in future development of PPP, possibly upgraded receptacles, maybe a choice of different internal wiring, who knows, I'll leave that stuff up to you to figure out.

[jdandy]

I don't know whether Serge is experiencing a voltage drop issue or not, but voltage drop can be a serious issue that needs to be considered and properly dealt with to minimize the problem.

Voltage drop is a result of the combination of wire gauge, wire resistance, wire length, and total connected load. As an example, with a full 20 amp load on #12 CU wire at a distance of 50 feet, the voltage drop calculates to 3.4 volts. In other words, consuming a full 20 amps using the above critera will give you 116.6 volts at 50 feet after the voltage drop. Using the same numbers but changing the wire size to #10 CU, the voltage drop is reduced to 2.1 volts over 50 feet of wire.

Of course, a twenty amp load on a 20 amp circuit will trip the circuit breaker, but the voltage drop issue remains the same for discussion purposes.

If one extends the distance to 100 feet, #12 CU wire with a 20 amp load will produce a voltage drop of 6.8 volts. 100 feet of #10 CU wire with a 20 amp load will produce a voltage drop of 4.2 volts.

When considering the length of circuit wire, one needs to remember to measure the distance up the wall from the circuit breaker, the length of the route the wire travels, and the distance down to the receptacle.

The two dedicate 20 amp, 120 volt circuits behind my main system rack have a total wire length of 20 feet from the circuit breaker to each receptacle. The wire is #12 CU. The voltage drop for a 20 amp load would be 1.4 volts.

Remember, voltage drop is proportional to the load. As the load is reduced the voltage drop will also be reduced. As an example, at 50 feet a 120 volt, 6 amp load using #12 Cu wire produces a voltage drop of 1 volt. Changing the wire to #10 CU with a 6 amp load produces a voltage drop of 0.6 volts.

Hope this helps someone better understand voltage drop as it applies to the current load of our audio systems.

[PHC1]

By the way, JL subs are pretty noisy. In fact until I started using the Pure Power I had all kinds of noise issues between the Ayre KX-R and EAR phono stage and was not able to completely resolve this problem. Neither the PPP nor the PurePower was able to sheild it completely, only inserting the also noisy Pole Pig isolation transformer between the phono stage and Ayre KX-R was I able to solve it. For some strange reason, the Lamm LL2D could care less about the Fathom subs spewing out garbage into the lines with their Class D amps. Go figure. And no, it wasn't a grounding issue at all. As soon as JL subs were unplugged, all issues went away and the phono stage was as quiet as a mouse.

[g_georgi]

Not everyone has a 400-500 amp service

Excuse my ignorance but could you not get more industrial/commercial grade power delivered to your home (e.g. 3-phase)?

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by g_georgi

Excuse my ignorance but could you not get more industrial/commercial grade power delivered to your home (e.g. 3-phase)?

I could but I am not doing for my current home. Next one has 400 amp service. That was the first thing I upgraded.

[hkval]

Short Unpdate: After another 20+ hours these babies are even better. A few of my female opera CD's had a bit of a metalic sound before this combination and now that is all but eliminated. All female voices have become richer with more body and male voices enriched with a smooth fullness. A few of the instrumentals I have seemed recorded in such a way as to have the individual instruments blend as one sound and now each piece has an individual space of the soundstage. I could not be more pleased with the results.

[Masterlu]

Thanks for the update HK!