Ongaku

[JSCC]

Originally Posted by Still-One

Jerry
Howie will never be set for life on audio gear. He likes new listening experiences far too much. Besides new gear is coming out all the time.

Jim

Jim,

OMG! Kondo website just announced a ONGAKU II version - to be available soon.

Nah, I am trying to do one scare to Howie like Victor did to me by saying a DSP9k SL was available the very night I got my DSP8k SL whites then! nearly fainted.

Cheers!

[howiebrou]

Originally Posted by Still-One

Jerry
Howie will never be set for life on audio gear. He likes new listening experiences far too much. Besides new gear is coming out all the time.

Jim

Jim,

I think the Ongaku will be a keeper for quite a while. Whilst you are correct in that I like to change around a bit to see if I can make it sound better, the tube itch was ever present after I sold my Mc2000 to make way for the Meridian Set up. Even when I bought the Soulution I knew that it would not be the final goal.

However the Ongaku plus Westminsters has been a goal of mine for nigh a decade and this goal has not moved its posts one bit in that time. The only thing that moved was my budget allowing me to move a little closer.

Of course time will tell but if you asked me what tube amp to move to from the Ongaku, given no constraints, I honestly can not think of one. That is the first time I have been in this predicament.

howie

[Still-One]

Originally Posted by howiebrou

Jim,

I think the Ongaku will be a keeper for quite a while. Whilst you are correct in that I like to change around a bit to see if I can make it sound better, the tube itch was ever present after I sold my Mc2000 to make way for the Meridian Set up. Even when I bought the Soulution I knew that it would not be the final goal.

However the Ongaku plus Westminsters has been a goal of mine for nigh a decade and this goal has not moved its posts one bit in that time. The only thing that moved was my budget allowing me to move a little closer.

Of course time will tell but if you asked me what tube amp to move to from the Ongaku, given no constraints, I honestly can not think of one. That is the first time I have been in this predicament.

howie

Howie
Over time I think you are going to miss full range gear more than you think. That said we all have something in our mind that is the ultimate set-up. If the Ongaku is yours then you will be happy.

For me, I know where I would like to end up but with design and engineering changing so rapidly the bar will be raised next year.

Jim

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by Still-One

Howie
Over time I think you are going to miss full range gear more than you think. That said we all have something in our mind that is the ultimate set-up. If the Ongaku is yours then you will be happy.

For me, I know where I would like to end up but with design and engineering changing so rapidly the bar will be raised next year.

Jim

Jim, what do you mean by "full range"?

[JSCC]

Originally Posted by PHC1

Jim, what do you mean by "full range"?

Let me guess Serge ...

Kondo Pre, Kondo Mono SET Power. Kondo Phono Stage, Kondo TT, Kondo Cartridge, Kondo Silver Cables & Kondo speakers .... full Kondo range!

Akin to buying the full Shindo range ...

When one has too much money, needs some excitement from the wife, this FULL RANGE purchase (Shindo or Kondo) definitely will capture HER attention for some full-range action.

[Still-One]

Originally Posted by PHC1

Jim, what do you mean by "full range"?

The limitations of frequencies that tube gear as compared to his Solution gear:

In the 710 stereo amp, THD is well below 0.0006%, the signal-to-noise ratio is well above 108dB, channel separation is an astounding 86dB, damping factor is above 10,0000, slew rate is 330V/ns, and power bandwidth extends from DC to 1MHz. (And these figures are even more mind-boggling in the monoblock 700 amplifiers.)

I haven't heard the Westminster SE's but have heard other Dual Concentric's and although two ways integrate nicely, the bottom end especially with tubes is too "rounded" for my tastes. The specs on the Tannoy's are often shown down 6dB on the low end which to me is a stretch.

Jim

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by Still-One

The limitations of frequencies that tube gear as compared to his Solution gear:

In the 710 stereo amp, THD is well below 0.0006%, the signal-to-noise ratio is well above 108dB, channel separation is an astounding 86dB, damping factor is above 10,0000, slew rate is 330V/ns, and power bandwidth extends from DC to 1MHz. (And these figures are even more mind-boggling in the monoblock 700 amplifiers.)

I haven't heard the Westminster SE's but have heard other Dual Concentric's and although two ways integrate nicely, the bottom end especially with tubes is too "rounded" for my tastes. The specs on the Tannoy's are often shown down 6dB on the low end which to me is a stretch.

Jim

I thought that's what you meant.

The THD and S/N ratio means diddly squat to me and many others who listen to various gear and come to the conclusion that all too often stuff that measure well sounds sterile and dry. The Soulution gear is no exception.

Most tube gear has sufficient enough bandwidth that covers the audible range and thensome. No need to go out into microwave range. Kondo has wide enough bandwidth.

Tannoy are shown -6dB and other manufacturers simply omit that little disclaimer. My Canterbury are more potent on the bottom end than my Elipsa and are tuneable for bass response to boot. The Westminsters are even more potent at 18Hz. The 15" driver launches a wave that pressurises the room much differently than 10" driver/drivers. I get a sense of a drum kit being in my room from a kick drum on a recording, I feel it, it sounds great and there is no bloat or overhang. Exactly what I hear when I hear drums playing live in a smaller acoustic space.

Wattage and power goes out the window. Simply can't compare 83dB efficient 4 ohm nominal speakers like MBL to Tannoy at 99dB and 8 ohm. They are speakers for totally different amp topology and requirements. What Tannoy can do with 20w, MBL will need 800w! Peak SPL Calculator

But more importantly, Big speaker/small amps sound more like real music than megawatt systems. What you hear as "round bass" I hear as real, analog bass that sounds like real bass instruments not some overly damped, muscle amp/speaker combo that creates dry, overly tight bass with overly sharp leading edge transients and very little body and texture that defines real music to my ears.

Of course all this is left to interpretation of the listener. I've been on both sides of the equation, I like what I hear much more with small 10w SET amp and appropriate speakers than I ever did with Krell, Mark Levinson, BAT, Bryston, ARC and all the other gear I have owned over the last 20+ years. As always, YMMV.

I close my eyes and I am there now.

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by JSCC

Let me guess Serge ...

Kondo Pre, Kondo Mono SET Power. Kondo Phono Stage, Kondo TT, Kondo Cartridge, Kondo Silver Cables & Kondo speakers .... full Kondo range!

Akin to buying the full Shindo range ...

When one has too much money, needs some excitement from the wife, this FULL RANGE purchase (Shindo or Kondo) definitely will capture HER attention for some full-range action.

Jerry,

[Still-One]

Originally Posted by PHC1

I thought that's what you meant.

The THD and S/N ratio means diddly squat to me and many others who listen to various gear and come to the conclusion that all too often stuff that measure well sounds sterile and dry. The Soulution gear is no exception.

Most tube gear has sufficient enough bandwidth that covers the audible range and thensome. No need to go out into microwave range. Kondo has wide enough bandwidth.

Tannoy are shown -6dB and other manufacturers simply omit that little disclaimer. My Canterbury are more potent on the bottom end than my Elipsa and are tuneable for bass response to boot. The Westminsters are even more potent at 18Hz. The 15" driver launches a wave that pressurises the room much differently than 10" driver/drivers. I get a sense of a drum kit being in my room from a kick drum on a recording, I feel it, it sounds great and there is no bloat or overhang. Exactly what I hear when I hear drums playing live in a smaller acoustic space.

Wattage and power goes out the window. Simply can't compare 83dB efficient 4 ohm nominal speakers like MBL to Tannoy at 99dB and 8 ohm. They are speakers for totally different amp topology and requirements. What Tannoy can do with 20w, MBL will need 800w! Peak SPL Calculator

But more importantly, Big speaker/small amps sound more like real music than megawatt systems. What you hear as "round bass" I hear as real, analog bass that sounds like real bass instruments not some overly damped, muscle amp/speaker combo that creates dry, overly tight bass with overly sharp leading edge transients and very little body and texture that defines real music to my ears.

Of course all this is left to interpretation of the listener. I've been on both sides of the equation, I like what I hear much more with small 10w SET amp and appropriate speakers than I ever did with Krell, Mark Levinson, BAT, Bryston, ARC and all the other gear I have owned over the last 20+ years. As always, YMMV.

I close my eyes and I am there now.

Serge
I am not sure where you are when you close your eyes but I doubt it is listening to live music. No tube amp I have ever heard sounds anything like live music, that is unless it trying to reproduce simple string recordings, There just does not seem to be enough bandwidth to convey a realistic picture that properly covers all of the frequencies and especially the higher frequencies and overtones. What you define as sterile and dry sounds much more realistic than overripe and rounded notes that aren't produced by people playing live instruments.

I would agree that tubes seem to present a soundstage with more depth but at the expense of speed, accuracy and dynamic range.

There is a market for every type of gear because everyone is looking for a different result. I am glad you have found yours.

Jim

[Pider]

Jim. What amp, etc, would come close to your ideal. Still learning here, so my question is sincere. Thanks!

John