MS300 power supply

[lwschwartz]

Originally Posted by sgbroimp

Here is what I received from Steve P. at Panurgy. (Seems to vary just a bit from what Larry cited in his #95 post.) Quoted with Steve P.'s permission:

Good morning Steve

Yes, unfortunately McIntosh has run out of boards. They haven’t had new boards in close to 5+ years. All the boards have been refurbished boards, however just over time due to damages and such, they will and did run out of boards to repair. The boards would fail due to components on the boards going bad, physical damage, or multiple repairs which eventually lead to the board not being repairable anymore. The components were McIntosh/Escient specific components that we were not able to obtain from any another component manufacturer for repair. Unfortunately due to cost effectiveness and time consumption, McIntosh does not supply the components needed for repair. Before boards were discontinued, turn-around time could have been anywhere from 4-6 weeks to refurbish 1 main board.

As far as other boards being available, we have received word from McIntosh that this is a discontinued service and units that do need mainboards will be rendered unrepairable. However, they do suggest you contact them directly if that is the case, 1-800-538-6576

We don’t have any schematics for repairs as repairs of the board were fulfilled by McIntosh, not us. Many service centers will be able to inspect the board for you, however, the components on the board are not able to be obtained. The process for repair required the board to be stripped down to bare frame. Then it would be reassembled with all working components, which is why 1 board may have taken up to 6 weeks to complete, after they obtained all the components to rebuild a board from the ground up.

Interesting bit of run around. Escient says Panurgy has the schematics, Panurgy says McIntosh has the schematics, and McIntosh says that the boards were sent back to someone from Escient for repair.

I got some insight into that process when one of my unit went to Panurgy for a repair. After the motherboard repair, Panurgy sent it back to me but didn't pack it correctly so the front glass broke. It went back to Panurgy. I had to wait 6 months until Panurgy was paid by FedEx for the damage, even though it was a packing issue. Then Panurgy broke some switches trying to replace the glass so it went back to McIntosh for the switches and the glass to be repaired. When that was done, it came back to me. I know the audit trail based on the labels and dates on the boxes. When it got to me, it still didn't work so I called McIntosh and asked for help. They gave me an RMA# and it has been there ever since waiting on a way to repair the motherboard. I was told that they sent the motherboards to someone from Escient to repair but that person has quit doing them. They were going to look for a board lying around that may be usable. That has been nearly a year. I am just waiting for the call that it is unrepairable.

I find it hard to believe that someone would actually remove all of the components from the motherboard and then resolder some new ones in their place. Those surface mount components must be pretty hard to solder by hand.

The BIOS update seems to be a good place to start. If McIntosh doesn't have the manpower to repair these anymore, then maybe they will let someone else take it over.

Larry

[Cohibaman]

My new caps came in today! I promptly installed them and double checked their installation. I then fired her up with only an old hard drive as a load to verify correct operation & voltages.

I'm now listening to my newly recapped, upgraded to 750GB, fan working, and most importantly, buttoned up MS300. Finally!

[sgbroimp]

Here is additional info from Steve P. at Panurgy. It suggests that some folks may have firmware CD's (such as so called Golden Disc) that are inadequate or incomplete, so if a unit is not booting, the possibility of not having the correct firmware needs to be considered if I read this right:


MS-300/750s are the same except for hard drive size, and maybe different firmware versions. Unfortunately none of the McIntosh units were consumer upgradable. Ive heard from others about this “golden Disc” but it sounds like a firmware that was released without McIntosh’s authorization across some forum boards. Unfortunately after installing this operating system from this “golden Disc” the unit will still not boot up. The unit then needs to be registered to McIntosh’s server via their service portal to load the MAC address, and we need to install the main-board drivers and serial #’s and CD Keys for the optical drive on the hard drive, for it to control all the hardware and boot sequence.

All mainboards, as far as Ive been aware, were refurbished boards that McIntosh repaired and supplied to us.

[Mfirst]

By no means am I am expert on Patent Law or IP issues - but reading some of this really upsets me. I feel we are held hostage by this nonsense and I don't understand why some of this can not be released into the public domain (so that we all don't feel like criminals for sharing a highly specialized niche software application for hardware that no one supports anymore). Maybe there are some lawyers on this forum that might provide some insight or help.

I know there are online petition sites for advocating an agenda - maybe we can sign-up for something to support a release of what we need to keep these things running.

I have no idea what version of the Golden Disc I have - nor do I even know if it works (or would work if I had a crash). Every other hardware vendor provides a "backup" options for the software in the event of a crash - even if their product is not user serviceable (like most Apple stuff). These are not unreasonable questions to ask or unreasonable expectations.

Given these headaches - and potential concerns that I might be stuck with an expensive brick because of such practices - combined with the recent stories about the MB100 - not to mention all of the other software (or firmware) issues that I hear about USB interfaces - I can clearly say that my enthusiasm for supporting any Mc product is hindered by the growing reputation.

-m

[sgbroimp]

[QUOTE=Cohibaman;668277]Those are the same exact caps as the ones that came out of mine. BTW, you only show 14 of the 15 caps. Looks like the 47uF is missing in your pic.

Good counting there. You are right. One little one rolled off the paper I used as background. Found it all alone on the floor this morning.

[sgbroimp]

Originally Posted by Mfirst

By no means am I am expert on Patent Law or IP issues - but reading some of this really upsets me. I feel we are held hostage by this nonsense and I don't understand why some of this can not be released into the public domain (so that we all don't feel like criminals for sharing a highly specialized niche software application for hardware that no one supports anymore). Maybe there are some lawyers on this forum that might provide some insight or help.

I know there are online petition sites for advocating an agenda - maybe we can sign-up for something to support a release of what we need to keep these things running.

I have no idea what version of the Golden Disc I have - nor do I even know if it works (or would work if I had a crash). Every other hardware vendor provides a "backup" options for the software in the event of a crash - even if their product is not user serviceable (like most Apple stuff). These are not unreasonable questions to ask or unreasonable expectations.

Given these headaches - and potential concerns that I might be stuck with an expensive brick because of such practices - combined with the recent stories about the MB100 - not to mention all of the other software (or firmware) issues that I hear about USB interfaces - I can clearly say that my enthusiasm for supporting any Mc product is hindered by the growing reputation.

-m

I share your and others frustrations, but I doubt there is any way to compel a manufacturer to repair an out of warranty product unless there is a safety issue (example: Takata air bags). My sense is that is better to appeal to the manufacturer's common sense that to not attempt to solve the motherboard issue is going to cost them customers or unit sales of new units. The fact that Larry has a unit in Binghampton that apparently has not been declared "unrepairable" hints that Mc may be trying to get a fix for this mess. In any event, I think Larry might write or call them and ask what is going on with his machine's MB and what they are trying to arrive at for a solution. In the meantime I decided to buy a used/working Fireball just to I have a working motherboard as a "spare tire". Of course, it might be a bald one, who knows, but at least I have something. If Larry is unsuccessful and a petition to Mc would do anything to get their attention, I for one would sign it.

[lwschwartz]

Originally Posted by sgbroimp

I share your and others frustrations, but I doubt there is any way to compel a manufacturer to repair an out of warranty product unless there is a safety issue (example: Takata air bags). My sense is that is better to appeal to the manufacturer's common sense that to not attempt to solve the motherboard issue is going to cost them customers or unit sales of new units. The fact that Larry has a unit in Binghampton that apparently has not been declared "unrepairable" hints that Mc may be trying to get a fix for this mess. In any event, I think Larry might write or call them and ask what is going on with his machine's MB and what they are trying to arrive at for a solution. In the meantime I decided to buy a used/working Fireball just to I have a working motherboard as a "spare tire". Of course, it might be a bald one, who knows, but at least I have something.

The golden disc was given out by Escient and by McIntosh at one time a few years ago before D&M instructed Escient to provide exclusive repair to Panurgy, who by the way, also repairs D&M's other lines like Denon. The golden disc just provides the operating system and can write the upper level BIOS. The low level BIOS is not accessable by the disc. That is usually done when the motherboard is repaired.

There was a time when customers wouldn't buy a software package unless the source code was put into escrow. No one seems to worry about it any more. Unfortunately, computer repair, which is what we are talking about here, is like auto repair. That is why I cited my example in an earlier post. The repair techs just know how to replace parts until the unit works. They don't actually repair the unit like my old alternator was repaired. They keep replacing parts until the customer doesn't come back. That means the unit is repaired or the customer gave up. Either way, it no longer represents a pending work order.

The engineers at McIntosh are quite capable of understanding the problems with and repairing the units. Management, however, decides on the best use of their time. Even though a potential cause of action would be based on the fact that the units were sold with known defects and no remedy to repair those known defects, it would cause quite a bit of ill will and may not end with the result we want. What we would like is a shop or engineer who can repair our motherboards, rewrite the low level BIOS, and keep them running for us. I suspect that we should all have the power supplies rebuilt, replace the hard drives every 3 years, and do some preventative maintenance on them. My first IBM PC that I bought in 1981 was donated to the library 20 years later and still ran fine. America is capable of building long lasting electronics if the choice is made to do so.

I was told by a friend one time that his father was an engineer at GE. His job was to develop a light bulb that didn't last so long because there was too much "missed revenue". I would like to think that is not a part of everything we buy but it seems to be here too. McIntosh certainly knows how to build great stuff when they choose to.

I have an E2 Escient that I kept for spare parts. I offered it to McIntosh but they told me that they thought they were going to try to have one of their engineers fix it. The Escients had the same problem. It seems to eminate from a bad power supply that when it gets out of spec, it fries the rest of the stuff in the unit. I was told that there were so many bad units out there than D&M closed Escient rather than trying to manage a recall.

Larry

[W9TR]

I would drop a well crafted letter to Charlie Randall explaining the situation and asking him nicely to have McIntosh post all the design information on sourceforge or github. It really is in everyone's best interest. D&M probably still owns the Escient IP, so that would have to be worked out. The EEPROM images would be especially helpful, I think.
Tom

[lwschwartz]

It would seem to me that both McIntosh and D&M would benefit from publishing the specs. They would gain enormous good will and then most of their prior customers would be able to get repairs done at a facility of their choosing. The only detractor would be Panurgy and this may be enough of a pain for them that they are happy to let go as well.

Now, who among us is able to write such a letter? I am sure we have members much better at it than I.

[fritzcurtis]

Guys...as I was the one who introduced Ft Worth Audio to the forum, I will make a visit to Otis over in Ft Worth (about 15 min from the house) and sit down with him and ask if he might be able to do some pc work for us. These guys are true experts in music and have a very good working relationship with the folks at McIntosh as they have been authorized repair for them for quite a quite. This leads me to my next point of maybe asking Otis to connect with the service guys at McIntosh and see if they might take the MS service problems "off their hands" so to speak. I will make sure Otis knows that he will need BIOS info from them in order to be able to perform a full rebuild of the MS unit. They already can rebuild everything else on the unit but the PC boards with the BIOS info. Will give it a whirl and see if we can replace Penury with Ft Worth Audio. FYI, both Otis and Les, know Penury guys as well as Ascent guys from way back. They are old school bench technicians who really get into these types of restorative situations.