AudioAficionado.org  

Go Back   AudioAficionado.org > Manufacturers Forums > Revel Speakers

Revel Speakers The Science of Sound

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81  
Old 08-17-2017, 07:31 PM
scirica's Avatar
scirica scirica is online now
Evolving Audiophile


 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: DFW Metroplex
Posts: 3,636
Default

What did you plug your Salons with? Barry told me to do that but I'm scared!
__________________
Analog: VPI Aries 3DR with Ortofon A95 cartridge; Ortofon ST-80SE Transformer; McIntosh C2500.
Digital: SilenZio Gen 3 High Performance Media Server; Esoteric K-03X.
Supporting System: McIntosh MX122 A/V Center; MC205 Amplifier; Bryston 14bSST2 Amplifier; PS Audio P10 Power Reconditioner; Revel Salon 2 Mains; Revel Voice 2 CC; JL Audio f113v2 (2); JL Audio CR-1 Crossover; Focal IC1002 Surrounds; Paradigm Studio Sub 15.
Cabling: Wireworld Silver Eclipse XLR; Wireworld Silver Electra Power Cords; Wireworld Silver and Gold Eclipse RCA's, Audioquest Aspen Speaker Cables.
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 08-20-2017, 11:20 PM
Pampero Pampero is offline
Audiot
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Nashville, TN.
Posts: 538
Default

^Hehe! I know what you mean.

I was going to make plugs for them but as you may know, Barry will probably tell you to use a properly sized towel. I tried the towels figuring I had nothing to lose. They're still stuffed in there! I left 'tails' strategically placed so you can't see them but you can get them out without sending your speakers out for surgery.

It's a lot easier to do that than to take the bases off and make plugs. Recommend you try it and then go ahead and tune to the new setup. The confusing thing is that since we're crossing them over and therefore rolling off the low end anyway, it seems like it shouldn't really matter very much, but I was taught to do as I'm told.
__________________
Lew

Last edited by Pampero; 08-20-2017 at 11:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 03-29-2018, 11:08 AM
Pampero Pampero is offline
Audiot
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Nashville, TN.
Posts: 538
Default

I recently retuned my subs and Salon2s using my existing equipment including the CR1 and dual F113s. I lowered the x-over point to 100Hz and was diligent (equals patient) in aligning for phase and level. I was able to achieve an almost perfect notch at the crossover point and the results are very tight and tuneful bass that really allows you to hear the attack and all the wanted artifacts like fingers on bass strings, the impact of the stick on the skin of drum, etc.

If anybody wants more details on my settings, I'm happy to provide them.
__________________
Lew
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 03-29-2018, 12:52 PM
Rex Anderson Rex Anderson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 173
Default

100 Hz seems too high to me. Have you tried 80 Hz? Might even try 70 Hz.

I had F112's and used 70 Hz with Lipinski L-707's as mains.

I think the F113's would be happier not going as high as 100 Hz and the Salon2's have no problem going well below 80 Hz.

You have to remember, low E on bass guitar is 41 Hz, low E on guitar is 82 Hz. D below it is 73 Hz.

I consider 80 Hz the upper range of bass. By the time you hit 110 Hz you're at the A string on guitar. That's low midrange IMO.

If you look at the specs of the F113 (http://www.jlaudio.com/f113-gloss-ho...bwoofers-96137), it's flattest (+/- 1.5dB) from 20-86Hz.

It's down 3 dB at 127Hz, that's just it's natural rolloff.

Last edited by Rex Anderson; 03-29-2018 at 02:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 03-29-2018, 02:09 PM
crwilli's Avatar
crwilli crwilli is online now
Racing Hoopties


 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Bluffton SC
Posts: 6,904
Default Subs for Salon2

But Rex, what if the main speakers generate a suck-out in the 80 to 110hz region because of their placement and the listening position AND the placement of the sub is such that the suck-out is eliminated... Each room and set of ‘position’ equations are different.

In general, you are right.
__________________
Main room - Sonus Faber Stradivari, JLAudio F113v2, McIntosh MC2301s with Stillpoint Ultra SS feet, McIntosh C1100 on Stillpoint Minis, Esoteric K-03X on Stillpoint Minis, Esoteric G-02, SilenZio v.2 Audio by -E- Media Server (running ROON), Other - GIK kit, Vicoustics Waveguide panels, WW Gold Eclipse 7 SCs, WW Platinum Starlight 7 USB, WW Silver Electra 7 PCs, WW Silver Eclipse ICs; 3 X 20 Amp Power lines, PS Audio P10 & Dectet, 3 Sound Anchor stands, Powerports and numerous Noise Harvesters. Furutech Flex 50, Cable risers, HRS dampeners

TV Room Audio - Panasonic TC-P60GT50, McIntosh MX-121, MC7106, Revel F52 & C32, B&W LM1, Sonos Connect\W4S Remedy\iFI 9V Power, WW & Kimber cables, PS Audio Dectet
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 03-29-2018, 02:58 PM
Pampero Pampero is offline
Audiot
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Nashville, TN.
Posts: 538
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
100 Hz seems too high to me. Have you tried 80 Hz? Might even try 70 Hz.

I had F112's and used 70 Hz with Lipinski L-707's as mains.

I think the F113's would be happier not going as high as 100 Hz and the Salon2's have no problem going well below 80 Hz.

You have to remember, low E on bass guitar is 41 Hz, low E on guitar is 82 Hz. D below it is 73 Hz.

I consider 80 Hz the upper range of bass. By the time you hit 110 Hz you're at the A string on guitar. That's low midrange IMO.

If you look at the specs of the F113 (http://www.jlaudio.com/f113-gloss-ho...bwoofers-96137), it's flattest (+/- 1.5dB) from 20-86Hz.

It's down 3 dB at 127Hz, that's just it's natural rolloff.
I've tried 80Hz with less satisfying results. I agree it is counter intuitive to go higher given the Revels are rated for flat response to 23Hz (the -3dB point) and are very, very flat through the mid bass. However, they don't measure that way in my room. I can relate to your comment. It was my initial thinking as well but for some reason in practice the subs don't seem to mind the higher xover.

The precision with which I am able to locate the null for tuning phase and level has improved since the last time I did the 80Hz tuning. Practice makes perfect if you will. It's a touchy adjustment as the depth of the notch is sensitive to the lightest touch. It could be that a very tightly dialed in 80 or 70 Hz xover will improve on the already impressive results I've achieved at 100Hz, perhaps tightening it up even further.

It's not a big deal to reverse the mains' polarities and do it again at any given frequency. Given the flat frequency and power response of the Salons, I initially thought I could get away with using 40 or 50Hz and tried it there but didn't like the results at all. What the JLs do better than the Salons at LF is quite simply, move more air.

BTW, my initial settings were selected after talking with JL about their recommendations which, surprisingly favor the higher crossover knee. Also it should come as no surprise to you that everybody who knows the Salon2s recommends a lower xover point. But in the end, how does it sound in one's space?

I'll try lowering the xover to see where it comes undone but 100Hz is sounding pretty darn good. I'll try again...I enjoy it actually.... and get back to the gang as it seems I'm the guy leading the charge regarding this issue (specific LF tuning of the Salon2s) on this forum.

Another discovery I've made is that either the input (or output or both) of the JLA CR1 or the output of my C52 or input of my 452 aren't true balanced circuits. This is an educated guess based on the fact that I have to make up pretty close to 6dB of gain to the amplifier when I insert the crossover. I use the mix pot of the crossover to accomplish this as I don't have any other place to grab that gain, If I don't make it up, my preamp will in theory clip 6dB before my amp runs out of juice. I can't think of any other reason why I should loose 6dB of gain going through the JL1 so I suspect the balancing act of one or the other of the inputs or outputs.
__________________
Lew

Last edited by Pampero; 03-29-2018 at 08:20 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 03-29-2018, 06:56 PM
Karl Maga Karl Maga is offline
Senior Member

 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Michigan
Posts: 349
Default

Lew, I appreciate you doing the heavy lifting. While I agree that one’s room will have some impact, I’m a believer that 80% or more of what you discovered is applicable to the rest - like me. So, when I get ready to add JL’s, I can start pretty far down the path. My fine Mark Levinson No. 523 preamp has stereo sub outs, so I’ll start with that though I assume I’ll end up with a CR-1.
__________________
Revel Ultima Salon2's, Voice2, Studio2's, PerformaBe M126’s, ATI Signature 6007, JVC DLA-RS500U, Silver Ticket STR-169120, WW Silver IC's

Last edited by Karl Maga; 03-29-2018 at 07:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 03-29-2018, 07:33 PM
Pampero Pampero is offline
Audiot
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Nashville, TN.
Posts: 538
Default

My pleasure Karl. I mean that literally as I enjoy playing around with the thing. It's amazing how altering the low end makes such a difference in the total sound. The Revels are capable of such great texture and presence. Getting the bass where you want it really emphasizes the feel of music as well as the sound.

It's been a bit of a journey getting my speakers dialed in and taken me some time to suss it out. Much of that time is of course related to my finances as the goodies you decide you want don't just show up all by themselves!
__________________
Lew
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 03-29-2018, 08:27 PM
Pampero Pampero is offline
Audiot
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Nashville, TN.
Posts: 538
Default

I do like the crossover (JLA) but I've been thinking about that insertion loss and have a hard time believing McIntosh would supply anything but a properly balanced connector given their decades of industrial experience in pro audio. That leads me to think maybe the JL isn't a true balanced device but I don't really know and my system doesn't suffer from any audible noise. I'd still say the CR1 is a good choice for a guy who doesn't want to use a pro audio digital/menu driven device that may not have the ease of implementation of the JL or Bryston. It sounds clean and seems to have the ability to make up whatever gain is lost on the way in or out. But I still wonder about the architecture and if a hobbyist devotee would have even noticed it. I am prepared to be wrong on this one but where o where are those missing dB?
__________________
Lew

Last edited by Pampero; 03-29-2018 at 08:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 03-30-2018, 10:11 AM
Rex Anderson Rex Anderson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 173
Default

Get a reference tone at +4dBu (I use test CD's). Play it from your source and measure it (a DMM will read 1.23 volts). Check each output stage and see where the loss is occurring.

6 dB is 1/2 the voltage. A common issue is an XLR cable that has lost one leg. Pin 1 is ground, pin 2 is hot, pin 3 is cold. If pin 2 or 3 are off, you lose 6 dB.

I downloaded the CR-1 manual and it has both balanced and unbalanced inputs and outputs. Looks to be a very well thought out and built device.

Last edited by Rex Anderson; 03-30-2018 at 12:52 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Audioaficionado.org tested by Norton Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:38 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©Copyright 2009-2018 AudioAficionado.org.Privately owned, All Rights Reserved.
Audio Aficionado Sponsors
AudioAficionado Subscriber
AudioAficionado Subscriber
Fortress
Fortress
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Wyred4Sound
Wyred4Sound
Audeze
Audeze
GIK Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
Esoteric
Esoteric
AC Infinity
AC Infinity
JL Audio
JL Audio
Acoustic Sciences Corportation
Acoustic Sciences Corportation
Legend Audio & Video
Legend Audio & Video
Audio by E
Audio by E
Canton
Canton
Bryston
Bryston
WireWorld Cables
WireWorld Cables
Stillpoints
Stillpoints
Bricasti Design
Bricasti Design
Furutech
Furutech
Shunyata Research
Shunyata Research
Accuphase
Accuphase