How to incorporate into home theater?

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by pete

Mr. Metaphacts, this is my first post. i have been a proud owner of the Liuto tower in smoked oak as well as the Cremona center (not "M") I also have a B&W sub and VA Haydn 's for my rear speakers. I use the Liuto's for 2 channel and all of the speakers in a 5.1 configuration during movies or TV watching, etc. The sound is processed thru a Denon AVR A100 which has Audyssey Mult EQ XT 32, which to the best of my knowledge is a very high resolution calibration system. In my humbel and i mean humble opinion, I think Audyssey does a fantastic job, for both 2.1 and 5.1 listening and viewing. Now I could be wrong, so I resepctfully ask what is it about Audyssey that you dont like.

Thank you for your time

Audyssey is fine if you have done all the proper set up work first and if you let it have no say in the position or size of your speakers. Problem with Audyssey is that it is often made out to be a substitute for due diligence in set up. It is not and when used that way simply isn't very good.

[pete]

Originally Posted by metaphacts

Audyssey is fine if you have done all the proper set up work first and if you let it have no say in the position or size of your speakers. Problem with Audyssey is that it is often made out to be a substitute for due diligence in set up. It is not and when used that way simply isn't very good.

Mr. Metaphacts thank you for trying to explain your problem with Audyssey. Let me first say that greatest upgrade i have ever made in my audio expierence which is imited both by knowledge and finances has been without a doubt having access to this site and extremely knowledgeable people like yourself. for that i thank you.

Regarding Audyssey, im pretty sure that Audyssey does not determine speaker size, ie. large or small, that determination is made by the amp. In a addition, you can over-ride the speaker size without compromising the calibration. Also, and this I am absolutely sure about, Audyssey does not limit speaker positions, in fact it is specifically designed to accomodate ideal and less than ideal positioning.

If some does thier due diligence and utilizes Audyssey, the results I'm sure would have no choice but to be more than amazing.

No i do not work for Audyssey nor am I affiliated with it in any way, i just am a fan, much like i am a fan of Sonus faber

Thank you for your time.

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by pete

Mr. Metaphacts thank you for trying to explain your problem with Audyssey. Let me first say that greatest upgrade i have ever made in my audio expierence which is imited both by knowledge and finances has been without a doubt having access to this site and extremely knowledgeable people like yourself. for that i thank you.

Regarding Audyssey, im pretty sure that Audyssey does not determine speaker size, ie. large or small, that determination is made by the amp. In a addition, you can over-ride the speaker size without compromising the calibration. Also, and this I am absolutely sure about, Audyssey does not limit speaker positions, in fact it is specifically designed to accomodate ideal and less than ideal positioning.

If some does thier due diligence and utilizes Audyssey, the results I'm sure would have no choice but to be more than amazing.

No i do not work for Audyssey nor am I affiliated with it in any way, i just am a fan, much like i am a fan of Sonus faber

Thank you for your time.

Patience Pete. I spent the past two days dialing in Ivan's Aida's.

I will answer over the weekend when I am home. BTW there is no compensation for compromised set up. There is however great use for digital EQ once a system is properly aligned.

[chessman]

Pete, welcome aboard!

[Glisse]

Originally Posted by pete

Mr. Metaphacts thank you for trying to explain your problem with Audyssey. Let me first say that greatest upgrade i have ever made in my audio expierence which is imited both by knowledge and finances has been without a doubt having access to this site and extremely knowledgeable people like yourself. for that i thank you.

Regarding Audyssey, im pretty sure that Audyssey does not determine speaker size, ie. large or small, that determination is made by the amp. In a addition, you can over-ride the speaker size without compromising the calibration. Also, and this I am absolutely sure about, Audyssey does not limit speaker positions, in fact it is specifically designed to accomodate ideal and less than ideal positioning.

If some does thier due diligence and utilizes Audyssey, the results I'm sure would have no choice but to be more than amazing.

No i do not work for Audyssey nor am I affiliated with it in any way, i just am a fan, much like i am a fan of Sonus faber

Thank you for your time.

Hello Pete, and welcome.

Whilst waiting for Bill to recover from pushing and pulling those giant Aida's around the Master's room, let me add some thoughts. And hopefully Bill won't get too cranky with me.

You are correct that with your XT32 version of Audyssey you can override speaker size without compromising the calibration, but this does not apply to other versions which lack filter power in the bass area.

However, Audyssey is based on achieving its target response at reference level, which equates to around 105dB at the listening position. The vast majority of people never listen to music this loud. The consequence to listening to Audyssey's flat response at, say 85dB, is that music will sound thin and uninvolving. Although of course Audyssey's response curve is not truly flat, it has a small dip in it around 2kHz (on the assumption most people will not be using high quality speakers with it), and some high end rolloff. The Audyssey Pro version can turn these off, not the others, including XT32.

Audyssey get around this issue by using their Dynamic EQ algorithm, which is an advanced Loudness control. The problem with Dynamic EQ is that there is no industry standard for this application. Nor is the curve user adjustable, except perhaps in the stand alone Audyssey unit, or Audyssey Pro. Audyssey maintain that Dynamic EQ should always be used, but it is tacked on to the calibration, not a part of it. It is a big compromise. For some people, the EQ will suit their speaker/subwoofer set-up, and the bass gain of their room, for others it will not. I think, but I may be wrong, that they are working at improving this part of their product. In my case, it gives me too much bass gain at my most typical listening levels, whilst it obviously works well for you.

To return this back to the OP, Freestone wants to build a satisfying music system around his SF Amati, possible using high power Macintosh tube amplifiers. Ignoring Audyssey for a moment, my view is that an AV processor/preamp, or receiver, will not be sufficiently transparent to allow Freestone to fully realise the potential of his Amati speakers for music. This is just my view, of course

But for multi-channel playback, it is difficult to achieve the meticulous speaker setup and room acoustic enhancements that can be done for stereo speakers. The centre channel, side channels, rear channel for a 7.1 system, and the subwoofer (perhaps to a lesser degree) are nearly always compromised in their placement for reasons of geography. My SF Domus Grand Pianos and SF Concert Grand Pianos, which share some heritage with your Liutos, are placed very close to the side and rear walls respectively. Yet both, particularly the Concerts, need to be well out from the wall to deliver their best performance. But this is impractical in a living room. Here, Audyssey helps a lot

[metaphacts]

The biggest issue I find in setting up a theater is a lowering of expectations because it is not stereo. In fact, because we are now talking about 5 loudspeakers and a sub, we have a far more demanding set up to do it right. But too often we start right out of the gate setting a system up for failure only to complain that it fails.

So what do you do if you are looking to develop a theater of commensurate performance with your two channel system, not an unreasonable expectation given the hi resolution audio formats and tighter control of set up parameters available today?

For me the answer begins with the same thing as it does for two channel. You must place speakers properly within the room. In theater, that means the ITU standard used in production of film sound. Most people have an ability to place speakers somewhere close to these standards. Where room issues prevent proper surround placement, you can utilize 7 speakers in a virtual 5.1 set up or a 7.1 channel set up. The key to making these positions work properly is even bass pressure throughout the room. That is not the same as one bass source.

Bass management on the production stage is quite simple: 5 Large full range directional loudspeakers and one low frequency channel producing 10dB of headroom above 5 large full range loudspeakers. There is no small speaker in production. At home it becomes more difficult because when the soundtrack is down mixed, you lose control of individual bass levels. If all the speakers are set to small and the bass comes from one source, you could argue that the individual bass levels really don't matter as long as the cumulative level is correct. Certainly it is easier to have directional pinging of information if there is no bass coming from the 5 speakers. But theater is about creating an environment, not just pinging directional sounds around the room. The result of set to small is an environment that tends to manifest itself on the boundaries instead of in all of the space within them.

So the ideal system for me will allow the following:
Discrete control of individual bass channels
Discrete control of LFE
NO SPEAKERS SET TO SMALL

Moving back to the answer for Freestone, let's address his system. First, he is using a REL below his Amati Homage. The REL has a speaker level input that allows you to properly blend it to Amati, crossing it over below 30Hz and creating a truly full range 4 way speaker. LFE comes into a separate input that bypasses the crossover and has it's own gain control. You are able to align proper bass gain between the large speakers and the LFE that include the room positions of the speakers involved.

Center and surrounds become trickier. There is no absolute match to Amati Homage. The closest thing we can do is to choose something close and match center and surrounds. That means Cremona Center M and Cremona M, Auditor M, or Elipsa Auditor. Maintaining coherence here will allow the best hope for success even though the Ms are not exactly the same as Amati.

But we're not done yet. Adding a second REL in the opposite rear corner to the fronts and connection to the rears allows the creation of full range surrounds. In addition, feeding LFE allows creation of a more linear and even LFE channel throughout the room. For the Cremona Center M, we're setting to large no matter what. Ideally, we add a center REL but run it only high level - no LFE here.

None of this will work unless the speakers are properly positioned to pressurize the room evenly. That's simply speaker set up. An oversimplified description might be that we are creating a three channel stereo and a two channel stereo, sizing them and snapping them together.

EQ used manually after all of the above is done is fine if you feel it is necessary. EQ should never be the recipe, it's the salt and pepper shaker on the dinner table.

As for the lack of transparency in theater processors, that can be addressed by using a two channel pre with a pass thru.

There is also no reason to limit 2301s to protect anything in theater. The 2301s have no clue what is playing through them and they are most assuredly full range amplifiers

I am a firm believer that what we get out of a theater has much more to do with lowered expectations/prejudices than it does with the capability of the medium. YMMV.

[Glisse]

Fascinating approach to subwoofers, Bill. The diagonal placement for room loading is something I never would have considered, but makes a lot of sense. Thanks!

[Poppyhome]

Hi Bill,

If you have only 2 RELs, what is the best attachment for the second REL. High Level to the center speaker or High Level and LFE to the surrounds.
Is it Ok to also attach LFE to the center, or is it not recommended. My speakers are in my signature.

Thanks!
Ron

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by Poppyhome

Hi Bill,

If you have only 2 RELs, what is the best attachment for the second REL. High Level to the center speaker or High Level and LFE to the surrounds.
Is it Ok to also attach LFE to the center, or is it not recommended. My speakers are in my signature.

Thanks!
Ron

Second REL should be high level/LFE on the rears. Allows for more linear, lower distortion LFE throughout the room as well os overall greater dynamic range for the entire system.

LFE would be added as a single or in opposite corner pairs

[Poppyhome]

I have the second REL attached to the center using High Level and LFE. I will try your recommendation and attach to the rears instead.
Much appreciated!
Ron