Strad Palladios

[howiebrou]

Originally Posted by JSCC

Jim,

Next year when Howie's amps comes in. Maybe we can coincide. Ideal.

I would plan for a trip next year IF Howie would welcome. Waiting for invite!

Cheers!

You always have an invite as well as other AAs!

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by JSCC

The wood!

The drivers ....

And the innards .....

This is correct. Besides the clear finish on maple, the most obvious visual differences are the phase plugs on the woofers. They are made of Vincenza stone on the Palladios. The material from which a phase plug is made will have virtually no measurable frequency response difference in the speaker one to another. However, the phase plug material changes the characteristic sound of the driver.

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by Masterlu

Bill, if you happen to find a new pair hidden away somewhere let me know.

Ivan I haven't been able to order a Palladio in over 2 years. Because of a communications snafu almost all were accounted for before we realized they were taking orders.

I was stunned to see Howie taking delivery of #25 so recently. I assume that Sonus was producing them very slowly because we were told at the end of 2008 we couldn't order more.

The pair I set up is in Florida. As far as I know it is the only pair in the US.

[1KW]

Originally Posted by metaphacts

This is correct. Besides the clear finish on maple, the most obvious visual differences are the phase plugs on the woofers. They are made of Vincenza stone on the Palladios. The material from which a phase plug is made will have virtually no measurable frequency response difference in the speaker one to another. However, the phase plug material changes the characteristic sound of the driver.

The physical appearance changes do not change the sound and I doubt the vincenza stone is going to make much of a difference either. Are the speaker drivers the same ? How are the innards different ?

[howiebrou]

Originally Posted by metaphacts

Ivan I haven't been able to order a Palladio in over 2 years. Because of a communications snafu almost all were accounted for before we realized they were taking orders.

I was stunned to see Howie taking delivery of #25 so recently. I assume that Sonus was producing them very slowly because we were told at the end of 2008 we couldn't order more.

The pair I set up is in Florida. As far as I know it is the only pair in the US.

Bill,

As far as I know pair #25 had already been accounted for by Absolute Sounds in the UK. I had to go a roundabout way to get hold of them so I guess you were correct in saying they were all sold.

howie

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by 1KW

The physical appearance changes do not change the sound and I doubt the vincenza stone is going to make much of a difference either. Are the speaker drivers the same ? How are the innards different ?

Before I answer your question about drivers, let me say that I will find out details of the differences for you. Originally Sonus told us there were driver and crossover changes as well as finish. I' try to find out precisely what they are.

Now unless you have been involved in development of drivers, I can see how you would "doubt that Vicenza stone makes much of a difference" and then wonder if the "speaker drivers are the same." They are not the same and yes it is that much of a difference.

If you want to understand what physical changes to drivers do, you need to listen to them in free air. Every driver has inherent coloration. The trick is to obtain the color with which you can live and then to make sure all the drivers that will be used in the system are similarly colored. Why? Because if the speaker crossover and enclosure are perfect (don't worry, not possible), if your drivers do what is physically (measurably??) necessary, what you are left with at the end of the day is the sonic "color" of the drivers. This, by the way, is where Franco's avocation as a musical instrument maker informed all of his driver decisions and it continues to be a large part of Sonus faber driver development. Physical and material changes affect sonic changes.

In a previous life, I was deeply involved in assessing/developing drivers for a loudspeaker company. In a particular model of speaker, we used extremely high quality drivers with cast baskets for mid and woofers. Even though the baskets were already extraordinarily quiet, we found that applying chicklets of 1/8" thick "black hole" greatly quieted the drivers. In the mid, the appropriate size was 1/2" by 5/8" and in the woofer it was 1/2" x 3/4" placed at a specific point on each basket rib. If in production, someone managed to use the wrong chicklets, say mid on woofer, there was no difference measurably. However, the assembled speaker would invariably fail the final listening QC.

This was but one of many components of what we did in creating the right driver for our speakers. Visually they were identical to rock stock. Sonically - a different world. At a hifi show in New York, I was talking with a couple of reviewers outside of one manufacturer's room whose speakers used the same oem's drivers we did. A third reviewer walked up and commented that if he ever heard another speaker with "that tweeter" he was going to shoot himself. I laughed and asked them if they preferred the high end of our newest model to that. All commented on the natural/integrated/musical character of the top end of our speaker. One even waxed rhapsodic about how different our sound was from "that tweeter." Imagine his shock when I informed him that our tweeter started life as the exact same driver they all loathed.

Everything matters. First you take care of measured differences. Then you examine what you think intuitively will make a sonic difference. The last thing you do is check the things that in no way shape or form should matter. That's often where the biggest surprises occur. After you think you are done, you go back and make sure that critical measured parameters haven't been adversely affected. Understanding which differences are improvements as opposed to just changes is what keeps you moving forward.

Long way to say that once you have an accomplished design, improving it is often found in the smallest of acoustic changes properly applied. And just because things are visually the same to the eye doesn't mean they are acoustically the same to the ear.

I'll make those inquiries about the Palladio this week but with the holidays it may be next before I have the exact differences for you.

[TommyC]

It's interesting the Palladios are better sounding. When I was purchasing my GM back in 2008, I inquired about the Palladio. My dealer said he contacted Sumiko and was told there wasn't any difference in sound. So, I went with the regular GM. Otherwise, I would go for the Palladio.

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by TommyC

It's interesting the Palladios are better sounding. When I was purchasing my GM back in 2008, I inquired about the Palladio. My dealer said he contacted Sumiko and was told there wasn't any difference in sound. So, I went with the regular GM. Otherwise, I would go for the Palladio.

Sorry to hear this Tommy. Sumiko never had Guarneri Memento Palladio so I'm not sure who at our office would have communicated that. In fact, I am the only one at Sumiko save perhaps JH who has heard Palladios of any iteration in a meaningful situation.

[Face]

Originally Posted by metaphacts

One even waxed rhapsodic about how different our sound was from "that tweeter." Imagine his shock when I informed him that our tweeter started life as the exact same driver they all loathed.

Crossover topology and crossover parts quality can make differences significant enough to severely alter the "character" of a driver.

As you said, "everything matters" couldn't be more true. FYI, I found that dynamat extreme works better for basket dampening than blackhole, YMMV.

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by Face

Crossover topology and crossover parts quality can make differences significant enough to severely alter the "character" of a driver.

As you said, "everything matters" couldn't be more true. FYI, I found that dynamat extreme works better for basket dampening than blackhole, YMMV.

For the tweeter anecdote I gave, yes definitely. You are correct on all fronts. You could even throw in crossover parts "quality" relative to other parts within the crossover.

For me damping is always based on specific need. In our circumstance, black hole was the preferred material in the amounts chosen. It's character was more subtle hence more easily adjustable to obtain the desired result. More importantly, the ability to cut black hole precisely to size made repeatability in production a snap. But the driver baskets we were using were already very rigid. The place we probably could have used dynamat was in the magnet to basket junction.