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Old 03-29-2014, 10:15 PM
dailycitrus dailycitrus is offline
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Default CA Innovation or Master or MT10 or AMG V12?

In the process of selecting a new TT and arm with a $30k+ budget (TT, Arm, Cables, ect.). What I have looked at so far:

McIntosh MT10: I am a McIntosh fan but the arm is not upgradable and CA makes it based on a lower model design. I like the floating platter and the electronic speed control. But I think its a pass.

AMG V12: the TAS review was a big plus but was undeceive on the bass performance and referenced the lack there of as a result of the cartridge used for the review. Then I noticed the founder passed away making me think this could be a one hit wonder and no upgrade path in the future. Has anyone heard this table and experienced the bass performance? Also, does the 12" arm require adjustments overtime?

ClearAudio Innovation Wood: I was heading toward this until I have read and heard from dealers this TT lacks in the Bass. Yes, it has the electronic speed control, floating platter, arm(s) are changeable, but if it truly lacks in the bass that could be a no go for me. Can someone comment on this TT and its performance on the Bass and compared to the other TT out there?

ClearAudio Master Innovation: Does this TT from CA also suffer in Bass performance and if not why? Is there value, $15k, in this design vs. the Innovation wood?

Other TT and arm recommendations are greatly welcome. I currently use vintage Tube Pre-amp/amps with ATC 150 speakers. For the TT cartridge I prefer to stick with the Benz Ebony TR with a custom Bob's SUT. I expect the TT cables will be transparent audio from the arm to the SUT to the Pre-amp.

Thanks for the responses.
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Old 03-29-2014, 10:49 PM
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There is certainly no lack of Bass with my ClearAudio Innovation Wood.
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MX136, MC1.2KW(10) MC2KW(2), MCD1100, MS750(2) MVP881, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, HT-2 SUBS(2) HT3F(2) WS350(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) XCS350(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U 4K PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" MOTORIZED SCREEN, CINEMA-TECH SEATING, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Reference System: ACCUPHASE A300 AMPS, C3900 PRE-AMP, DP1000 CD/SACD TRANSPORT, DC1000 DIGITAL PROCESSOR, DG-68 DIGITAL EQUALIZER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, PS1230 POWER SUPPLY, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, WW PLATINUM CABLES
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MX150, MC501(2) MC1.2KW(10) MC2301(2) MR88, MVP881, MCD1100, MDA1000, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, ESOTERIC K-01X 30th ANNIVERSARY (BLACK) SACD/CD PLAYER, G02-X CLOCK, HT3F(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(4) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) KALEIDESCAPE STRATO & TERRA SERVERS 80-TB, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U 4K PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" SCREEN, SONUS FABER STRADIVARI, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, FORTRESS SEATING, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Analog Rig: CLEARAUDIO INNOVATION WOOD, UNIVERSAL ARM w/ Da VINCI' CART, 2nd UNIVERSAL ARM w/ GOLDFINGER STATEMENT CART, HRS-MXR REFERENCE RACK-GLOSS BLACK w/ M3X SHELVES, AESTHETIX RHEA SIG PHONO-PRE, BRYSTON BHA-1 HEADPHONE AMP, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Reference System: BURMESTER 911MK3 AMP(3), 088 PRE-AMP, 089 CD PLAYER, 100 PHONO PRE-AMP, 948 POWER CONDITIONER, ACCUPHASE DG-68 VOICING EQUALIZER, AVID ACUTUS REFERENCE SP TT, GRAHAM PHANTOM II SUPREME ARM, BENZ MICRO LP-S CART, GRANDIOSO P1X/D1X STACK, G1X RUBIDIUM MASTER CLOCK, N05 NETWORK PLAYER, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, SONUS FABER AIDA SPEAKERS, JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(2) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) WW PLATINUM CABLES

Library System: GRANDIOSO M1 MONOBLOCK AMPS, C1 LINESTAGE PRE-AMP, K1X CD/SACD PLAYER, G1 MASTER RUBIDIUM CLOCK, E02 PHONO-PRE, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, AERIAL ACOUSTICS 20T V2, AERIAL SW12 SUBS(2), CANTON REF K1’s, VPI HRX TT w/ SDS POWER SUPPLY, ORTOFON CADENZA BLACK CART, KLAUDIO RCM, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2, SHUNYATA OMEGA QR’s, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Esoteric/Bryston System: ESOTERIC C02-X PRE-AMP, P-02X TRANSPORT, D02-X DAC, G02-X CLOCK, BRYSTON 28B3 CUBED MONOBLOCK AMPS(4), BRYSTON BHA-1 HEADPHONE AMP, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2(2) EVEREST 8000 POWER CONDITIONER(2) ALTAIRA CG & SG HUBS, AMR-DP777-SE DAC, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, QUADRASPIRE RACK, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Accuphase/Canton System: ACCUPHASE E800 INTEGRATED, DP570 CD/SACD PLAYER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, DG-68 VOICING EQUALIZER, PS530 POWER SUPPLY, CANTON REF K3’s, CANTON REF K5’s, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, HRS MXR REFERENCE MAHOGHANY RACK w/ M3X2 SHELVES, WW GOLD CABLES
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Old 03-29-2014, 10:57 PM
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If I had 30K to budget for a table and arm, I would go VPI Classic Direct without hesitation.
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Preamp: McIntosh C1100T/C1100C, McIntosh MX180
Amp: McIntosh MC611 (2), MC601 (3), MI254
Digital: McIntosh D1100, McIntosh MCT450, Meridian 808v6, Aurender N20, Aurender ACS10, Oppo 203
Analog: McIntosh MT10, Hana Umami Red
Phono preamp: Simaudio Moon 610LP, 820S
Signal cables: WW Gold Eclipse 7 speaker cables; Shunyata Sigma v2 XLR (2); Sigma v1 XLR (2), Transparent Ref XL (MM2) XLR; WW Silver Eclipse 7 (4)
Digital cables: Shunyata Omega USB, Omega Ethernet, Sigma Ethernet; WW Platinum 7 Coax, AES/EBU
Switch: Innuos PhoenixNet
Power: Audioquest Niagara 7000, Audioquest 5000, Audioquest Dragon, Hurricane PC, Shunyata Alpha HC, AQ NRG Edison outlets, (8) 20 amp dedicated lines, 125 amp subpanel
Speakers: Wilson Sasha DAW, Dynaudio Contour 30, Dynaudio Contour 25C
Subs: REL s/812 (6), REL s/510 (3)
Accessories: HRS M3X2 shelf (MT10), Stillpoints Ultra II v2 w/ bases (21), Ultra SS (12), Mini (12), LPi v1
Sound treaments: Artnovion
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Old 03-29-2014, 10:57 PM
dailycitrus dailycitrus is offline
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Masterlu, thanks for that info. also, have you had a chance to compare the Master Innovation to the Innovation Wood (that you have)? or have you seen any creditable comparisons?

thanks
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  #5  
Old 03-29-2014, 11:01 PM
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Masterlu Masterlu is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dailycitrus View Post
Masterlu, thanks for that info. also, have you had a chance to compare the Master Innovation to the Innovation Wood (that you have)? or have you seen any creditable comparisons?

thanks
I almost bought a Master Innovation, but in the end I couldn't hear any difference.
__________________
Ivan
FLORIDA
MX136, MC1.2KW(10) MC2KW(2), MCD1100, MS750(2) MVP881, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, HT-2 SUBS(2) HT3F(2) WS350(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) XCS350(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U 4K PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" MOTORIZED SCREEN, CINEMA-TECH SEATING, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Reference System: ACCUPHASE A300 AMPS, C3900 PRE-AMP, DP1000 CD/SACD TRANSPORT, DC1000 DIGITAL PROCESSOR, DG-68 DIGITAL EQUALIZER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, PS1230 POWER SUPPLY, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, WW PLATINUM CABLES
CAPE COD

MX150, MC501(2) MC1.2KW(10) MC2301(2) MR88, MVP881, MCD1100, MDA1000, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, ESOTERIC K-01X 30th ANNIVERSARY (BLACK) SACD/CD PLAYER, G02-X CLOCK, HT3F(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(4) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) KALEIDESCAPE STRATO & TERRA SERVERS 80-TB, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U 4K PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" SCREEN, SONUS FABER STRADIVARI, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, FORTRESS SEATING, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Analog Rig: CLEARAUDIO INNOVATION WOOD, UNIVERSAL ARM w/ Da VINCI' CART, 2nd UNIVERSAL ARM w/ GOLDFINGER STATEMENT CART, HRS-MXR REFERENCE RACK-GLOSS BLACK w/ M3X SHELVES, AESTHETIX RHEA SIG PHONO-PRE, BRYSTON BHA-1 HEADPHONE AMP, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Reference System: BURMESTER 911MK3 AMP(3), 088 PRE-AMP, 089 CD PLAYER, 100 PHONO PRE-AMP, 948 POWER CONDITIONER, ACCUPHASE DG-68 VOICING EQUALIZER, AVID ACUTUS REFERENCE SP TT, GRAHAM PHANTOM II SUPREME ARM, BENZ MICRO LP-S CART, GRANDIOSO P1X/D1X STACK, G1X RUBIDIUM MASTER CLOCK, N05 NETWORK PLAYER, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, SONUS FABER AIDA SPEAKERS, JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(2) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) WW PLATINUM CABLES

Library System: GRANDIOSO M1 MONOBLOCK AMPS, C1 LINESTAGE PRE-AMP, K1X CD/SACD PLAYER, G1 MASTER RUBIDIUM CLOCK, E02 PHONO-PRE, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, AERIAL ACOUSTICS 20T V2, AERIAL SW12 SUBS(2), CANTON REF K1’s, VPI HRX TT w/ SDS POWER SUPPLY, ORTOFON CADENZA BLACK CART, KLAUDIO RCM, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2, SHUNYATA OMEGA QR’s, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Esoteric/Bryston System: ESOTERIC C02-X PRE-AMP, P-02X TRANSPORT, D02-X DAC, G02-X CLOCK, BRYSTON 28B3 CUBED MONOBLOCK AMPS(4), BRYSTON BHA-1 HEADPHONE AMP, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2(2) EVEREST 8000 POWER CONDITIONER(2) ALTAIRA CG & SG HUBS, AMR-DP777-SE DAC, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, QUADRASPIRE RACK, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Accuphase/Canton System: ACCUPHASE E800 INTEGRATED, DP570 CD/SACD PLAYER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, DG-68 VOICING EQUALIZER, PS530 POWER SUPPLY, CANTON REF K3’s, CANTON REF K5’s, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, HRS MXR REFERENCE MAHOGHANY RACK w/ M3X2 SHELVES, WW GOLD CABLES
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  #6  
Old 03-29-2014, 11:02 PM
dailycitrus dailycitrus is offline
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Ivan/Masterlu,

that is very helpful thank you.
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  #7  
Old 03-29-2014, 11:04 PM
dailycitrus dailycitrus is offline
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J3Brow,

what makes you lean towards the VPI classic direct? compared it? use it now? other?

thanks
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  #8  
Old 03-29-2014, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dailycitrus View Post
J3Brow, what makes you lean towards the VPI classic direct? compared it? use it now? other? thanks
I am just a fan of VPI. I have used a Scoutmaster for 7 years now and am very pleased with the performance. The Classic Direct has garnered excellent press and competes as best the world has to offer. Check out Tone Publications review -- awarded overall product of the year. By the way, Benz is an excellent match with the VPI arm, I have a Benz LP-S riding on my 10.5i arm.
__________________

Preamp: McIntosh C1100T/C1100C, McIntosh MX180
Amp: McIntosh MC611 (2), MC601 (3), MI254
Digital: McIntosh D1100, McIntosh MCT450, Meridian 808v6, Aurender N20, Aurender ACS10, Oppo 203
Analog: McIntosh MT10, Hana Umami Red
Phono preamp: Simaudio Moon 610LP, 820S
Signal cables: WW Gold Eclipse 7 speaker cables; Shunyata Sigma v2 XLR (2); Sigma v1 XLR (2), Transparent Ref XL (MM2) XLR; WW Silver Eclipse 7 (4)
Digital cables: Shunyata Omega USB, Omega Ethernet, Sigma Ethernet; WW Platinum 7 Coax, AES/EBU
Switch: Innuos PhoenixNet
Power: Audioquest Niagara 7000, Audioquest 5000, Audioquest Dragon, Hurricane PC, Shunyata Alpha HC, AQ NRG Edison outlets, (8) 20 amp dedicated lines, 125 amp subpanel
Speakers: Wilson Sasha DAW, Dynaudio Contour 30, Dynaudio Contour 25C
Subs: REL s/812 (6), REL s/510 (3)
Accessories: HRS M3X2 shelf (MT10), Stillpoints Ultra II v2 w/ bases (21), Ultra SS (12), Mini (12), LPi v1
Sound treaments: Artnovion
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  #9  
Old 03-30-2014, 01:40 AM
mulveling mulveling is offline
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I think any claim that any (choose one) well engineered high-end TT (which the Clearaudio certainly is) lacks in bass needs to be met with some funny looks. There are LOTS of ways to make the bass go AWOL in a high-end analog rig: poor cartridge/arm choice, phono stage, bad setup, etc. Or maybe even look at the speaker setup. Blaming the table is easy to do, but misguided.

I get pretty epic bass response with my Innovation Wood feeding into a Hagerman Trumpet and Bob's 1131 SUT. Cart is a Koetsu Jade Platinum; the platinums have great bass, but are certainly no bass monsters. The Trumpet/1131 pairing has the best bass response of the phono stages I've tried, and the differences between stages in bass are not particularly subtle. The tradeoff is that the Trumpet also doesn't have much of a subsonic filter, so you've got to be careful with isolation.

I'd actually like to try an Ortofon Windfeld in this setup. I had a hard time accepting the Windfeld's midrange (a far cry from Koetsu), but its bass was insane -- nimble, extended, and immensely powerful without a hint of bloat or sloppiness (i.e. analogous to the Trumpet/1131). I think the Windfeld with Innovation/1131/Trumpet would yield truly EPIC bass response.

Last edited by mulveling; 03-30-2014 at 01:45 AM.
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Old 03-30-2014, 02:41 AM
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Garrards are known for their bass impact and quality amongst there many other great qualities. I have mine in the marketplace right now, it's a stunner in both sound and look I just never get to use it (kids!) so I decided it's time to move on and downsize into something more affordable like a Well Tempered Amadeus so I can still play the occasional LP when the rare moment strikes.

Of your choices though I've heard the AMG and it's fantastic. I've heard some of the clearaudio's and they sound great too but that AMG always stuck out for me.
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