Bookshelf Speaker Options for MA12000

[SAM992]

Originally Posted by McMan

Note: I would switch out the McIntosh Tubes in the pre-amp section for Gold Lions. I found more clarity within instruments and voices with the gold lions in place.

I've heard the same thing.

I have a full set of those sitting in the drawer to go into my C1100 as soon as I get some use out of the ones in there now, I pretty much have this thing on day and night 20+ hours a day... so that shouldn't be long.

[SAM992]

Originally Posted by PHC1

I’ve heard stand mounted speakers outperforming floor standers at 3x the cost. We all know the price vs performance graph is not linear in this hobby.

Our ears are also not linear but closer to logorithmic in terms of sensitivity to frequencies with the midrange of our 20-20KHz or more like 20-12Khz past 50 years of age

Many animals sense lower frequencies as well as higher frequencies much better. Survival. We don’t process lower frequencies as well. Fletcher Munson knew that with his studies of the subject since the 1930’s. Hence we had loudness buttons to compensate for that fact. At lower levels, we feel we need our bass to be turned up.

So why fight nature? First, I have always advocated and will continue to be an advocate for speakers that focus on midrange qualities. It is what we are most sensitive to.

As we age, the tweeters become less critical but can still be irritating, even at 12KHz, so I still prefer silk or soft dome to metal. My preference.

Secondly and very important that speakers do not overpower the rooms they are placed in or the glorious midrange you paid for will be ruined with bass overhang and bloat.

I prefer a smaller, tastier portion of filet mignon to a huge but tasteless hunk of steak at a restaurant. Quality to quantity.

Don’t worry about the bass and full range. Worry about the type of sound that appeals to your ears on your favorite music and human voice. A speaker like that will be enjoyed for a very long time. As far as bass, Santa can always drop by one Xmas and solve that problem with a nice sub or two if one has been exceptionally good.


As far as measurements... Any 2 way speaker with a mid-bass driver can reach 20Hz. The output level however will be some perhaps 12-24dB down at that point and useless to our ears. We are not perfect and neither are our speakers. My own Harbeth 30.2 will reach 20 Hz and make a very audible rumble still but it will be significantly down from the 32Hz where they are still in the game. That’s fine for now. I will be adding subs but it is not a pressing priority for me. I’m enjoying them as is with a very musical and engaging response in my 30x30 ft room which can accommodate any full range speaker.

And for me at least, the solution for more rounded low end will be a room eq and not a pair of subwoofers ... at a minimum, I have no space for two subwoofers, and then there's a part of me that just doesn't like how they sound with 2-channel audio.. home theater, maybe ... but for music, not really.

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by SAM992

And for me at least, the solution for more rounded low end will be a room eq and not a pair of subwoofers ... at a minimum, I have no space for two subwoofers, and then there's a part of me that just doesn't like how they sound with 2-channel audio.. home theater, maybe ... but for music, not really.

Then you have yet to discover their magic. It’s not something that can be thrown together but carefully dialed in for best results.

An eq cannot get you what your speakers cannot do in the fist place but can tame the speakers that are too overpowering for the room on the other end of the spectrum. So it is the completely opposite approach to the same goal of having well behaved, well articulated, deep bass.

Big difference of course is the fact that the room perfect eq has to do all that in the digital domain with lots of processing. It doesn’t come free and without a sonic penalty. If it was perfect, everyone would be on it by now.

[W9TR]

In small rooms a pair of stand mounted 2-ways with an external crossover and quality subwoofer is the gold standard.

In small rooms with floorstanders it is very difficult to get the speakers positioned so the bass and mid bass is correct and at the same time get the midrange and imaging dialed in.

[SAM992]

Originally Posted by PHC1

Then you have yet to discover their magic. It’s not something that can be thrown together but carefully dialed in for best results.

Oh yeah, it's been a 4 month process of trial and error to get this far...

An eq cannot get you what your speakers cannot do in the fist place but can tame the speakers that are too overpowering for the room on the other end of the spectrum. So it is the completely opposite approach to the same goal of having well behaved, well articulated, deep bass.

This is true too, but the speakers are definitely not reaching their potential in a room like mine, with a huge bed in the middle and mirror sliding closet door.

Big difference of course is the fact that the room perfect eq has to do all that in the digital domain with lots of processing. It doesn’t come free and without a sonic penalty. If it was perfect, everyone would be on it by now.

Check with (Masterlu) Ivan... they work like magic..

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by SAM992

Oh yeah, it's been a 4 month process of trial and error to get this far...



This is true too, but the speakers are definitely not reaching their potential in a room like mine, with a huge bed in the middle and mirror sliding closet door.




Check with (Masterlu) Ivan... they work like magic..

Room EQ is not something that interests me personally. I have explored them to some extent. They have their place and sometimes it is perhaps the lesser of two evils to get out of a situation. In my personal approach, I don’t back myself into a corner to try and get out of it with heavy processing.

To others it may be a good way to flatten the speaker/room response and hear music closer to the truth. In this regard, I’m old school and a bit of a purist. I’m sure there will come a day when that approach may be the best solution to good sound in any room. I’m not in a hurry.

As to the rooms..

During those periods of my life where having a system that I could play at will and to my satisfaction was not possible, I enjoyed the hack out of music with headphones and tubes. Still do at 2-3 am when everyone is sleeping!

If had to only listen to my favorite headphones forever on a deserted island, well, so be it, I’ll take it.

Music can be enjoyed many ways and with headphones, speaker to room problems are non existent. Still people like to EQ the heck out of them and change the sound. That’s fine, whatever gets one closer to favorite music.

In summary, whichever way gets you to enjoy music more is the right way for you.

I’m looking forward to your impressions of what processing can do for you in your room.

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by W9TR

In small rooms a pair of stand mounted 2-ways with an external crossover and quality subwoofer is the gold standard.

In small rooms with floorstanders it is very difficult to get the speakers positioned so the bass and mid bass is correct and at the same time get the midrange and imaging dialed in.

That was my system for some years. Still brings a smile when I think back to it. It was the best of everything. Finesse and glorious sound of Franco Serblin magic design (sonus faber), the sheer power and punch of two JLA subs perfectly dialed to perfection over months with a crossover between pre/amp.

Speakers and amps never saw the octaves that would strain them. Coherent, beautiful sound from the most delicate of Stradivarius violins to the thunderous voices and bass of Folk Metal. A very well rounded system.

It took me quite sometime and a tremendous effort to match and eventually improve on that with much more expensive gear in a dedicated room.

[BuffaloBill]

Representative of the McIntosh XR50, placing a bass driver in a small light-weight cabinet box with a sensitivity rating of only 81db is going to result in all kinds of sonic problems. To reach a desired listening level more power will be needed to cause the necessary pistonic movement (excursion) of the diaphragm. This will create much back pressure inside the cabinet some of which will bleed back through the diaphram adversely affecting transient response, resulting in intermodulation distortion, causing phase cancellation...not to mention basket frame vibration and cabinet wall resonances. To each his own.

[SAM992]

Originally Posted by BuffaloBill

Representative of the McIntosh XR50, placing a bass driver in a small light-weight cabinet box with a sensitivity rating of only 81db is going to result in all kinds of sonic problems. To reach a desired listening level more power will be needed to cause the necessary pistonic movement (excursion) of the diaphragm. This will create much back pressure inside the cabinet some of which will bleed back through the diaphram adversely affecting transient response and resulting in intermodulation distortion, not to mention basket frame vibration and cabinet wall resonances. To each his own.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I0Oipr4Kfs

Nobody who has heard the XR50's, and I've spoken to many, including two dealers that could have sold me any of a half dozen other brands, has said they're anything but amazing for their size..

[BuffaloBill]

Dealers can't re-write the laws of physics.